The Minciu Sodas laboratory

What do I really care about?

Answers by Andrius Kulikauskas to Natalie d'Arbeloff's questionnaire What do you really care about? (which I highly recommend). March 19th, 2001.  Andrius, ms@ms.lt

 

1) What do I really want to do and to be in the short term and the long term?  

I want to be a truth engager. I want to make all truth available.

2) What do I really care about?

I care about "loving".  I want to love directly.

3) What choices will I make?  What things will I let go, and what things will I take up?

4) What are the practical steps I must take to start moving in my chosen direction?  What's involved in terms of earning money, and in terms of time, place, and people?  

I will organize my life so that I am productive from God's perspective.

5) What is one aspect of what I really want to do that I can focus my thinking on and put it into some kind of form?

I will work on the infrastructure of the laboratory.
I will make our workspace attractive

6) What can I do so that all along the way I respond to whatever life presents me with, in the best way I can?

I can spend time every day on life that goes beyond the laboratory.  Within the laboratory, I will pursue endeavors that encourage me to do this.

7) Do I agree to place my answers in the public domain, so that all may copy and share them without asking for my permission?  (If you do, we'll share them.)

Yes

8) Would I like to give my name?  And a way to contact me, such as an email address?  (If you do, we'll credit you as the author.)

Andrius Kulikauskas, ms@ms.lt

Please send to The Minciu Sodas laboratory:
ms@ms.lt   or   Grudu g 6, LT-2020 Vilnius, Lithuania.
Thank You for Caring about Thinking
 
 
 
 


Notes


What do I really want to do and to be in the short term and the long term?

I want to be a "truth engager".
I would like every will to engage the truth.
In the short term, I would like my own will to engage the truth.
I would like the truth to be just outside the mind of every will.

What do I really care about?

I care about "loving".
I wish to love more than I can think.
I wish to open every channel of my will, so all love could flow through.
I wish love to overflow the banks of my will, rather than flow around them.
I wish to know the structure of my will that I may open it entirely.

What choices will I make?  What things will I let go, and what things will I take up?

I choose to invest myself in others only by pursuing endeavors through material loss, endeavors that foster caring:  shaping us, involving us, inviting us, including us.

I want to love individuals, but I do not want to care about individual relationships.  I only want to invest myself in relationships that I can share with others.  I want my relationships with others to be based on endeavors that we can share.  I want to structure myself so that I stay open to every sort of endeavor that anybody might bring.

I want the Minciu Sodas laboratory to be open to every sort of endeavor that we might ever have.   I want us to focus on the synergy amongst our endeavors so that we may bring our energy to every single one.  Not every endeavor fosters caring directly, some just foster thinking.  I think, however, that the synergy always fosters caring.

We will have this synergy if we focus on why the truth of every day life is relevant to each of our endeavors.  I want our work to be public, so that I may focus on the truth of every day life.  I want the structure of our laboratory to have us focus on this, and make this tangible for others, so that we might all be open.

I want the Minciu Sodas laboratory to place our endeavors in the proper perspective.  Some we should pursue through material gain, and some through material loss.  We pursue through material gain endeavors that foster thinking, and through material loss those that foster caring.  We are devoted to "caring about thinking", so we should mind both perspectives.

I think material gain can foster thinking by:
- acknowledging our every day needs.
- bringing together people who might not otherwise be able to participate, such as the poor.
- constraining us in ways that stimulate creativity and enrichen solutions.
- clarifying the workings of the economy that it depends on.
- propagating a solution so that many others may adopt it.
- showing the relevance to those who might not otherwise appreciate.
I value such endeavors indirectly.  I therefore want to be careful not to pursue them without getting paid!  So I choose not to work on them for free unless they serve our own needs.  Furthermore, in working on them, whether for pay or not, I will insist that they help us to grow as people, and they allow us to reach out to others.

Money can bring us together.  It can get us to think about the same things, but it can't get us to care about each other.  I suppose that's because you can show that you're thinking, but you can't show that you're caring.  They can't pay for what you can't show.

I think material loss can foster caring by:
- having us focus on individuals, rather than relationships
- having us focus on relationships in general, rather than particular relationships
The Minciu Sodas laboratory is based on relationships.  I want the relationships that I build to grow from endeavors through material loss.  I choose to invest effort in any person, whether inside or outside of our laboratory, if it's for efforts through material loss.  Even when I work for pay, I  will look for how our work fosters caring, and I will invest in others only to the extent that together we do foster caring.  I will not, however, foster caring through material gain.

What are the practical steps I must take to start moving in my chosen direction?  What's involved in terms of earning money, and in terms of time, place, and people?

I want to conduct  my life so that I'm productive from God's perspective.
I think these last two months I've been able to work very productively.  I'd like to work this way for quite some time.  What's new is that I have a part-time job, but I also have the laboratory.  This is roughly how I spend my time:

8-9 hours: sleep
1 hour:  prayer with my best energy.
1 hour: breakast, etc., and priming my mind for the day with my "anti-list"
1-2 hours:  work on my system of thoughts, the most important ideas about life that I can think of.
1 hour: lunch
1-2 hours: break for sports outside, like ride my bike
1 hour: chores or errands
4 hours: work I bill for
1 hour: dinner
1 hour: work on laboratory infrastructure and relationships
1 hour: work on laboratory endeavors
1-2 hours: time for friends or unexpected adventures
1 hour: read a book and the Bible before I sleep

That's 23-27 hours.  There aren't any set times for anything, just general patterns.  (I'm interested what kind of building might support those patterns).  So every day works out a bit differently, I get to be very flexible and available.  My "anti-list" helps keep me balanced.  I think to-do lists and schedules are counter-productive, they reduce productivity because they are restricting life and creating dead time.  Instead, every morning I think of concrete examples how during the day I might:

1) spend time with God  (maybe we work on some ideas together)
2) foster my conscience  (do my taxes!)
3) foster my discipline (sports, go to bed early, be chaste, etc.)
4) foster my stewardship (clean or maintain something)
5) foster my curiosity (this helps me be more interested in what others are doing and are good at, humbles me)
6) foster my servantship (how might I make myself available for somebody else as they wish)
7) foster my comradeship (how might I wholeheartedly support somebody else's project that has nothing to do with my own)
8) be successful (God wants me to succeed)

All I do is "prime my mind", think of examples that I   c o u l d   do.  I don't specifically have to do them, I'm happy if something much more relevant comes up.  If I don't get around to something one day, I can do it another day.  It just makes me sensitive to that area of life, and balanced with regard to all of them.  So the only accountability is that I know if I've neglected a particular area, because I can't think of good examples or I keep thinking of the same ones again.   I put together this "anti-list" about five years ago when I was unhappy with various aspects of my life, my half-heartedness towards various things.  So I did an inventory, and out of that created these eight groups of what I could work on.  I've done this for about five years, and it works wonderfully.  It keeps me alive to everything, and I don't every have any more concerns.  It can easily take half an hour to go through the list, and I might not have time that day to hardly do anything, but I've conlcuded that it's much less important that I actually do something than I be ready to respond.

I like my schedule because I'm forced to be very focused on the things that really matter, use my hour or two to feel that I was able to take a concrete step forward in getting things done.  I know that when I have more time it gets wasted and sidetracked.  So I actually like having a part-time job, it keeps me productive and also helps me go beyond myself, contribute to the chores of society and learn what other people need and like.  I think, if it's only for twenty hours a week, just about any job can be pleasant enough and I can put energy into doing it well.

I want to take practical steps so that I can live this way as much as possible.  I have to deal with my financial obligations.  I'm willing to travel, but ultimately I'd like to have freedom to live wherever, such as Lithuania.

For the last three years I've
If I have to work more than 20 hours, then I start to lose what's important to me, and I think it's a loss for myself and others.
 
 

I don't want to go deeper in debt, in fact, I need to start paying it back.  I need about $2,000 a month to live and grow, and another $1,000 a month in payments.  In order to pay my debt back, I need to make an additional $1,000 a month for the next four years.  I would like to be able to assume that most of this will be unrelated to the laboratory, I want to be able to do this working part-time, ideally 20 hours a week.  I would like this job to help me to grow, to develop my practical skills.  So I should find a way to earn $50 an hour.  I would like to be able to do such work anywhere, first of all Lithuania, but also other developing regions.  I'm willing to travel, though, to build the relationships to make this possible.  For example, I want to develop my practical skills organizing programming systems, and build up my resume as an analyst and consultant for systems development.  I'd like to be able to lead work on endeavors involving some "nitty gritty" architectural solutions to sweeping social problems.  I would like to be able to help bring in work for other people.

I want to gradually shift over to making income from the laboratory.  I want this income to come from our core services - attracting innovators and leading investigations that integrate people around truth.  I want this income to strengthen the values and principles that structure our laboratory.  In particular, that for our participants and sponsors, public research has greater value than private research.  For this reason I reject private research, which is completely counter to the social values and business principles of our laboratory.  Instead, I think it's logical that we charge more for making our research even that much more public.

I want to integrate that as part of the truth, this fact that I and others need to earn a living.

I'd like to consider doing this for two years, and then reflect on whether to make another radical shift.

I want to engage people with as many different kinds of concerns, and interests, as possible.  So I want to live and travel accordingly.

I want to have a market where we can pursue even the most modest ways of working through the public domain, but simply as a proof of concept, and a way of involving others.

I want to focus the business of the laboratory on getting major sponsorship for an endeavor.

When I work on the laboratory without income, I want my work to be comprehensive, and I want to focus on serving our own needs, and reaching out to those who might not otherwise be able to participate.  For income, I want to develop proposals in different directions, and then see which one merits sponsorship, rather than do work for free.

I want to steadily pay back my debts, but also be able to work from Lithuania, or travel.  So I want to be able to find employment that I can work from a distance.  I want to develop my practical skills for organizing "heterogeneous systems" that make available diverse roles for people using a wide range of norms and technologies.
 

What is one aspect of what I really want to do that I can focus my thinking on and put it into some kind of form?

Create infrastructure for sponsors to be able to work here, we provide them the infrastructure.

I want to understand, what we must do so that sponsors feel comfortable participating in our laboratory.  This includes participants feeling comfortable working with or for sponsors, that there be avenues where sponsors and participants can develop private business arrangements,  there be ways for sponsorships to grow, that we have many proposals that make our own interests concrete, that we are effective in sharing our proposals, we are open to new proposals, that we make the value of our laboratory understandable and familiar (for example, http://www.cluetrain.org or The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell).  In particular, we should be open and supportive to those bringing new initiatives, regardless of sponsorship.

We should show that sponsors benefit first and foremost from supporting our infrastructure so that we our their workspace where they attract innovators, rethink their own beliefs and integrate others around them.

The proposals that make our own interests concrete should arise from our own needs, and we should work to satisfy them, regardless.

Pursue the collection of subjective answers as a "ground floor" for engaging truth.  Encourage the wonderful work of all who wish for such a ground floor.
 

  • Reach out to the widest variety of people, especially those who may have or may inspire endeavors.
  • Develop a spirit of investigation in everything we do.  We each have interesting projects, but I would very much love us to look at everything we do with the spirit of investigation, thinking of it as an experiment, be willing to look at it more generally.  In this way we'll be able to share what we do, by generalizing it.  I will work very hard with anybody who would like to develop their own way of investigating. That's what we're about here, at Minciu Sodas.
  • Be our own best customers.  For example, let's apply the tools for thinking for what we want for ourselves.  Let's let our own needs, interests, usage drive what we do.

  • Develop at least modest streams of income for our members, in a wide variety of ways.  Let's be interested in what the needs of our other members are, and consider the extent to which we might address them.

    What can I do so that all along the way I respond to whatever life presents me with, in the best way I can?

    Focus on life that goes beyond the laboratory.  Work on investigations and endeavors that encourage me to do this.

    I want to love more than I can think, so I should love through being and doing.  I should be with God, and do with God, not just think with God.

    I want to engage truth, so I should do that everywhere, not just through the Internet.  The Internet favors people who are good and fast writers, who have access to technology, are comfortable with computers, communicate in English, and have free time.  We can help make such access more available, but I think, more importantly, we need to find ways how people might participate and contribute without such direct access.  Our work through the Internet helps us to model the laboratory, but the laboratory should be able to function without the Internet.

    Tyr to spend some time each day to identify what comes up that doesn't fit my picture of the world, and be extra engaging with regard to that.  Reflect on it, but try to see what aspects are familiar, but also, what aspects are novel, and focus on those.

    Be open and supportive of all new initiatives.  Reserve energy and time each day for life that goes beyond the laboratory.  Keep working with regard to what the laboratory should be, needs to be, rather than what it may seem to be, or suggest itself to be.


    More Notes and Letters

    What are the big questions in life?


     

    ************************************************************************************

    Structure the Laboratory so that we can focus on the impossible.  To focus on the impossible is to be comprehensive, to draw in all the many kinds of the impossible.

    The impossibly large and the impossibly small can combine to form something very possible, even certain.
     
     

    The working group
    OtherStands supports people who want to think about other stands, not
    just their own.  In particular, this is to support people who are
    willing to publicly explore their own beliefs or hunches,
    discover unexpected truths, and thereby build bridges that relate
    different beliefs.  This service is, I think, very useful for making
    discussion groups more productve.  In particular, as an endeavor, I
    want to popularize the collaborative accumulation, in the public domain,
    of subjective answers to interesting questions.  I intend sponsorship of
    this endeavor to be the main source of income for the Minciu Sodas
    laboratory for this year.

         I think the lab should focus on the impossible.  It involves behavior.
    All religions and philoposphies ultimately center on doing, not being.  That
    is, "do onto others", "do good, do no harm", "equality for all". The
    impossible brings in very interesting behaviors as it involves the added
    gifts of doing new things and thinking new thoughts.  The impossible insists
    on small segments of behavior leading to the ultimate impossible.  It relates
    to faith these fragments will add up to something. It's impossible to to
    build a house with little money and no help.  One board at a time, one wire
    at a time, and in a few years it's done.  The value of the impossible is that
    since the efforts are so slow,  modification can be made as work progresses.
    Slow progress takes a lot of thought and that is the reward, a lot of
    interesting thinking.

    If we can't effectively work incrementally, we're stuck doing only possible things.  [ ...and what fun is that? : ) ]

    The impossible means

    Structuring the Laboratory

    How can we work on so many?  I intend them to generate synergy.

    So, you can see, that we really are a laboratory for "caring about
    thinking", not just in any particular sense.

    Our guide to developing the synergy, being comprehensive:
    - We're open to   I'm certainly open and responsive to starting new endeavors,:
    A) Which may come from sponsors. (and then must be from material gain).
    B)  Come from leaders who bring endeavors that foster "caring about thinking".

    The workspace that I want it to be, both
    culturally and technologically.
    Would like to find a leader
    who could take over, say, in half a year.  We develop an economy where our members, especially in
    Lithuania, could earn some money, and our members - TheBrain, Mindjet,
    and individuals, could clearly benefit from services, up to $5,000,
    say.  Also, that we could use www.paypal.com or something like that to
    develop small income streams for small projects, which might support
    members such as Thoughtstream, Lucid, and goodies for us - phonecards,
    books, etc.  That's part of what I mean by structuring the lab.  Also,
    distributing the various components of the lab across our membership.

    - Our Own Stands, "Make Work Fun!" lead by Steve Raiff.  I want to help,
    so that in the following year Steve could have a solid working group, at
    least as active as the one we have for Our Own Thoughts.  I'd like to
    make it comfortable for him to work within our laboratory, experimenting
    through his leadership, but looking for how his approaches to work, and
    the rest of the lab, might fit together.

    For
    example, I will come to the OurOwnThoughts group to help organize
    technology for "accumulating subjective experiences", and for any other
    of our projects, such as Steve's.  I will ask the OtherStands group to
    use the other groups as test cases, for how we can organize ourselves
    more productively, and in particular, how we can use the "accumulation
    of subjective experiences".  I will ask Steve Raiff and the OurOwnStands
    to help us make our work more fun.

    - Caring About Relationships with Others, "Heart-to-heart Support
    Network", which I'm working on with David Ellison-Bey in Chicago.  How
    can we support each other so that we have the energy to speak
    heart-to-heart with each other, and even with those who don't want to
    speak that way.

    - Caring About God, "Prayer in Twos or Threes", I'm personally
    interested in learning how to pray together with one or two other
    people, what is that about?  It's almost scary!  For me, I think this is
    a way of learning how to love God.

    The creative tension has spurred my personal growth.  More importantly
    (!) I know that the creative tension has greatly advanced the system of
    thought that I have worked on all my life. This is because the
    laboratory somehow connects for me the gears of my own life, and my God,
    and all of you.  So there is feedback upon feedback.  I love that very
    much, so I want to keep working on the laboratory, and learn how to stay
    fixed on that.

    I don't wish Minciu Sodas
    to be a "central" laboratory, but rather, that Minciu Sodas be one of
    many workspaces, connected in a web.

    I do want to be open to radical change.  I hope you will help.  I
    think that we will have truly reflected if we end up with observations
    that none of us expected.

    Minciu Sodas has focused on work, on getting
    things done, on endeavors.

    I hope to find ways to work better as a team.    Within OurOwnThoughts, I will focus on clarifying with you
    how and why we might work together.

          I haven't yet learned how we might all work well together as a
    team.  I am happy, though, that there are definite successes.  Mostly
    encouraging each other:  I think of Steve Raiff devoting more time to
    BrainFarming.  Or meeting wonderful people: I think of Marjorie and
    Annette going out to lunch.

    I also plan to make heavy use of
    tools for thinking in the reflection that I will be doing, and will
    invite others to join me.  So I will mostly come to OurOwnThoughts with
    concrete wishes for using tools for thinking.

    What are the practical steps I must take to start moving in my chosen direction?  What's involved in terms of earning money, and in terms of time, place, and people?


    The impossible goal.

    So it's good to have something concrete.

    The goal that I've chosen is helpful because it lets me focus, gives me something concrete that I can work on, and take to sponsors.

    I'm willing to let go of any particular problem.  Usually I work on the thing that I can add the most to my knowledge overall, what helps me formulate new questions.

    I myself need to have income.
    But, perhaps more importantly, need to engage the real world, what others care about, what presses on them, and that is also reflected in their need for income.
    These are things that we would completely ignore, if we didn't have any pressure.  So that's helpful to have some of that pressure.

    So I think I should look to our sponsors for direction, what interests them.

    But in order to approach sponsors, I need to market myself.  In order to market myself, I have to have something concrete to show them.  Especially because we want to pursue the new, unexplored, not just repeat the old.  So I have to do work, that I might show them.  But if I'm going to do work, and sustain that for quite some time, then I need to feel the work satisfies my need.  So I need to do work that would address our own needs.
     

    Review my opinions on making a living.

          I've worked for three years to start up Minciu Sodas.  I've run
    out of funds, and I don't want to borrow any more until I have
    reflected.  Reflect, then take a stand, then follow through!

    I think if we can carve out
    an hour a day for working extremely hard on what we truly want to do,
    then that's certainly enough to accomplish wonderful things.

    Our society encourages us to believe that we can find the perfect
    compromise, a job that pays well and that we love to do.  My experience
    is that people who believe that end up with jobs that they kind of like
    and that pay just OK.

    If you really want to pursue something with the best of your life's
    energy, and if it's truly dear or holy to you, then money will
    compromise it.  The more holy it is, the more evil that will be.

    So first consider what you really want to pursue with your life, and set
    aside the making money part.  Make sure you get the education that will
    let you do want you want to pursue, and especially study the foundations
    that keep your options open, because your vision is going to evolve.
    Also, realize that you're not going to get very far unless you're
    self-educated.  And if your priority is to be self-educated, you're
    going to have problems with the educational system, it will not be
    friendly.  So brace yourself.  You have to let everybody know what you
    really want to do, and intend to do.  They will not be encouraging, but
    it's much better to start walking the path in the face of the world,
    then to always pretend in your mind, hide your dreams, never actually
    pursue them, and be a sick and miserable person.

    Also, the best people who will help you are the ones who wrote the
    classics, and your peers with whom you can discuss your ideas, not your
    teachers.  A university is, by design, a sheltered life, so if your
    dream has anything to do with engaging life, realize that and keep one
    foot in the real world.

    When you're done with your schooling, you'll have to make a living.  If
    your education has given you general skills, you'll be OK.  Some of my
    friends have just stumbled into work that fits them very well.  The only
    problem with that is that your not being very active in shaping your
    life.  But certainly it's good to play off of what fate - or God -
    offers us.

    If you do have a life pursuit, then you'll have to make a living.  Many
    people think that you can work hard and save money and then be free to
    do whatever you want to do.  Those people are still working.
    Unfortunately, we are naturally bad at saving money, the more money we
    make, the more we spend.  Even more important, our mind has to be
    continuously engaged in a pursuit in order for us to make progress on
    it.  You can't just show up ten or twenty years later and think you'll
    be up and running.  It takes time to develop the rhythms and be able to
    pour yourself into what you want to do. Finally, if you're Christian,
    you're supposed to give everything away.  Start doing that so you know
    what it's about.  You're not allowed to save it, if it can be put to
    better use by somebody else.  We're all debtors, if you look at the
    stories in the Gospel.  Don't be afraid to borrow money if it's for what
    you value most.

    As I started, we don't want to compromise what we're doing.  Of course,
    it's always good to consider how our jobs can give us skills for what we
    want to do.  We should always look at the assets, not the profits - how
    does this job develop my assets.

    A nice solution is to work part-time, and pursue your own dreams
    part-time.  That's what St.Paul did, he was a tent-maker.  In America,
    there's little excuse not to do this.  You'll be rather poor, but you
    will grow tremendously.  I believe if your spouse lives this way, too,
    then the two of you can support a family, also.  As an aside, if we only
    had sex with people we married, and only married people we were in love
    with, then I think there would never be a population problem.  More
    importantly, if you live this way then, in theory, you'll more likely to
    find your true love who also wants to live this way.  In practice, I
    haven't such fortune, but I still believe this.

    Another problem, though, is that the jobs that pay well typically offer
    no clear benefit to society.  Whereas the jobs that generate clear
    benefit - such as raising food, or raising children - these jobs are
    always underpaid.  If you have any real talent, it's a crime to waste it
    on a job that simply exists because of some government regulation, etc.
    So that gives you an extra challenge.

    Several years ago, I moved to Lithuania, where I want to have a job
    that's integrated with the local economy.  I realized that I can't just
    work part-time, because we're too poor.  So I started a business.  The
    problem with a business is that you can't do it just part-time, at least
    I can't.  It's all-consuming.  So if you have some life pursuit, you
    have to work it out with God, how you'll put that aside, or even more
    tricky, how your business will help keep moving that along.  Cut a deal
    with God, let him know how he'll benefit, do that with all your heart.
    Understand that he'll nudge you every so often, as things progress, so
    you keep him in mind.  Something to consider, too, is that a business is
    successful when you can walk away from it, when it runs without you.

    Wealth is relationships.  So if you can generate quality relationships,
    you're generating wealth, and you'll get a share some how.  So consider
    how you can help the poor "get in the loop".  Also, by having a business
    that relates somehow to your life pursuit, you're forced to make things
    concrete, and find ways of integrating people.  So there's advantages,
    but you should  Also, business can be good for the soul, in that if your
    doing it right, you can't encompass it all at once, you have to be
    hyperflexible, willing to respond in all directions, while focusing on
    your values and mission.  I think this is how Christ lives, doing what
    any good person would do.

    Christ was a mooch.  If you can live as a mooch, that's really rough,
    you have to know what the lines are with regard to your friends, be very
    sensitive to the extent to which they want to help.  Also, you always
    have to remember we're all equal, regardless of our little missions in
    life.  If your friendships keep getting stronger, you know your doing
    OK.  He was good at that.  Strive to live as a mooch.  You really have
    to know your values, spend a lot of energy developing them.

    I don't know much about you, except that you're probably going to end up
    somewhere in the financial system.  You should open your eyes and
    realize that the financial system of our world doesn't hang together,
    regardless of what they tell you.  Pull out a globe and realize that in
    your lifetime, if you take responsibility to help keep this system
    going, there's good reason why you should be lined up and shot.  There's
    also good reason why you should be screwed over by your colleagues and
    lose everything you thought was yours.

    You don't own anything.  We are all equal.  Everything is there for the
    ones who can make best use of it.  Certainly some people are better
    stewards than others.  And frankly, who is so poor as to want the shirt
    that fits your back?  Or who wants to share your home?  But you may
    never say, this is mine, I can do what I want with it.  More
    importantly, any gifts and talents that you have are not so that you
    would be happy, but so that we all would be happy.  What would you do if
    you were born in Cambodia?  So please keep us on your mind.

    There's certainly a lot of beautiful work you can do to figure out how
    to make this financial system work.  Money is an indicator.  Christ said
    it was a little thing, and the way we value little things is the way we
    value the big ones.

    Always show good will.  You can show good will even to somebody you
    don't love.  And you can show as little as you want, that may in fact
    give you better feedback.  But always show that little bit.  Look for
    the slack.  Good is slack.

    Do be successful.  Have you ever been very happy?  Wasn't that
    exhausting?  If you're happy, share it with others, it will be easier
    for you.  Unfortunately, we're afraid to be happy, and we actually spend
    a lot of energy wanting to fail.  Did you ever wish to be less alive?
    God wants us to succeed, but we choose to fail.  God loves us - wants us
    to be alive - more than we want to.  We're alive - sensitive and
    responsive - when we're at peace.  Happiness is fine, but not the real
    goal, because when we're happy we're focused on that, and dead to
    everything else.  But when we're at peace, we're sensitive, like water
    that responds with ripples to a pebble.  Also, fun is a great indicator
    of directions.  But when we something truly matters to us, we don't need
    it to be fun any more, that's just a distraction from what we truly want
    to do.  So peace be with you!

    Conclusions

    I want to avoid any new financial obligations until I
    understand what I'm doing.

    What is one aspect of what I really want to do that I can focus my thinking on and put it into some kind of form?

    I like the particular goal I've chosen because it supports the people who work in solitude, gives them support in some of what's the hardest of what they do, and also encourages them that their work may build along with others.  Also, it makes it better for me to learn about the needs of others, in a way that lets me relate them to my own, that I might better understand them.

    I'd like to find and identify resources that I think that are valuable and/or in the spirit of this.
    I'd like to focus on the collection of answers that I and others I know are directly interested in.
     

    What can I do so that all along the way I respond to whatever life presents me with, in the best way I can?

    Investigations

    I expect that we will come upon a new, unexpected belief.
    If so, then our investigation is a success.


    Time for Reflection 12/31/00  Andrius

    I've started up a Mind Map, on the theme "thriving on impossibility",
    regarding what we wish for the future, working both separately and
    together, and how what we learn from life spurs us on, and how we can
    intensify this feedback, especially as we head straight for the
    impossible.


    1/2/2001
     
     

    Yesterday I had a great conversation over the phone with my friend Joe
    Sochor.  He said that it's easy to consider the reasons why we don't
    care about something:
    - Annoyed me.
    - Trivial or irrelevant.
    - Not enough time.
    - I can't make a difference.
    - I don't have enough mental energy.
    - I'm not sure I have sufficient desire to make it worth the effort.
    - Marginal or fringe.
    - Everybody cares about it, we are over involved.

    Here are some of my notes from our conversation:

    Joe: "Some things I do care about are very closely related to things I
    don't.  We talked earlier about 'living the faith', or 'spiritual paths'
    or however you might call it.  There are whole realms within that which
    I don't care about because people attach too much importance, though I
    do see they merit some importance."
    Joe: "I don't care about watching spectator sports, but I do care about
    playing them."
    Joe: "I don't care about rocket science, but I do care about calculus,
    which is a part of that."
    Joe: "I don't care about foo-foo fancy cooking equipment, but I do care
    about cooking something to see what the result will be."

    Andrius: "That reminds me of setting up the good will exercises.  We
    would get to the real issue by looking for what made us feel positive,
    and what made us feel negative.  Those two feelings were very closely
    related, and brought out the real issue."

    Andrius:  "I like your distinction very much.  So my investigation could
    have us heighten the distinction between what we care about and what we
    don't care about."

    Andrius: "But also, I'd like to consider, should we care?  What do we
    gain by caring, or not caring?"

    Joe: "A sense of self.  Our conscious involvement."
    Joe: "Hey, what are signposts where you know you care or don't?"

    Andrius: "If I raise my guard, or lower my guard, then I know that I
    must care.  Sometimes my guard drops, instinctively I feel why I care,
    unconsciously I know why I care.  Sometimes I raise my guard, for
    example, when somebody challenges my faith.  I remember when the
    Jehovah's witnesses would knock on our door.  I think I raise my guard
    when I feel lost as to what I care about, when I feel it may get twisted
    or misrepresented, when   I  consciously don't know why I care.  If I
    don't raise or lower my guard, it's neutral, then I don't care, it's not
    touching me."

    Joe: "What is something that you didn't care about, but now you care
    about?"
    Andrius: "Having friends.  I didn't feel any need for friends, but now I
    enjoy that very much.  I still don't feel friends are a necessity, but I
    am glad to devote a lot of energy to friendships."

    Joe: "That reminds me of  c a r i n g   j u s t   e n o u g h, which is
    what I find is most productive.  Some things I may care about, like
    spiritual things, but there is not much way of getting a handle on
    that.  But other things are quick to pick up, accessible, easy to
    engage."

    Andrius:  "That's a beautiful concept!  It suggests that often we may
    undercare or overcare, and that makes for problems.  For example, maybe
    it's not good that you don't care about spectator sports at all.  Maybe
    it would be much simpler if you cared a little bit, just for the sake of
    caring.  Otherwise, you're spending energy not to care!  It's good to
    know that you care about playing them, rather than watching them.  But
    maybe that can help you care about watching them."

    Joe: "Yes, in fact, I do appreciate watching sports, after I have found
    out how hard they are to play."

    Andrius: "With that perspective you could even appreciate watching them,
    considering what it might be like some day to play them."

    In conclusion, here is an investigation that I will be pursuing, for my
    own sake, over the next several months.

    My reason for doing this: "I would like to know everything about life,
    and apply that usefully.  I want to do this because I think I can, and I
    don't think I have anything better to do with myself."  (Maybe we'll
    find a better reason!)
    My hypothesis: "The ways that we care about everything and anything will
    show the ways of loving God and loving our neighbors, and in particular,
    make sense of the ten commandments."
    My question: "What are the ways of caring about anything and
    everything?"

    My investigation:
    1) Invite others to help.
    2) Each of us makes a list of what we care about, and what we don't care
    about.
    3) Each of us orders their list, starting with what we care about the
    most, and ending with what we care about the least.
    4) Each of us notes what we care too much about, not enough about, and
    just enough.
    5) In each list, we look for pairs of what we care about, and don't care
    about, that are closely related
    6) We phrase each pair so as to heighten our feelings about them.
    7) We identify factors, in each pair, that account for why we care or
    not.
    8) We consider reasons why we should care less or more about these
    things, and how they affect us.
    9) We relate these reasons to the ten commandments, or other structures,
    how they have us care.

    If you would like to help, please let me know.  You can write to me at
    ms@ms.lt, or through this group.  Our work will be in the public domain,
    and we will credit you as the author.  So please use your judgement as
    to what you feel comfortable sharing.  You are free to choose what you
    think best illustrates your feelings.
     
     


    Natalie, Thank you for your letter, which I've read several times, and
    find very helpful.  For me, it's always a bit of a shock to feel that
    I'm making progress in one direction, and then I have to address ideas
    coming from another direction.  In general, ideas tend to branch out
    very rapidly, so it's very difficult to focus them so that they go
    somewhere.  Actually, I have a better chance of doing this when I do get
    genuine questions and remarks like yours because then I can point to
    them.  I can show that what I look for, or what I claim, or what is
    truly in the back of my mind, is already in your very questions and
    ideas.  In other words, I can rely on your mind as half of my own, so
    when you get engaged, I can stand back and observe.  Of course, I have
    to accept your freedom, that there are different angles, any of which
    might engage you.  Even so, I can think how the ideas I am looking for,
    and the ideas you are generating, are naturally connected.  Then I can
    capture that connection with some kind of structure.  That structure
    allows me to come back to that connection later.  If the structure is
    true, then I can turn things around, and engage myself in the ideas that
    the structure captures.  I can feel for myself that they are true, they
    do feel right.  I can then talk with that structure, with the Truth.  I
    can learn from it, and draw conclusions, so long as I engage myself
    truly, rely on what my feelings tell me.

    This is like a game, except it's very serious.  I call it "step in, step
    out".  In a conversation, which may have several people, you "step in"
    when you engage an idea, rely on your subjective experience, your
    intuition, your feelings.  You "step out" when you watch, you observe,
    the dynamics of the conversation, how are the ideas unfolding, how are
    they related?  You can't do both at the same time, so you need some kind
    of extension of your mind, which might be other people, or God.  Or it
    might be something like writing, or even a system of truths, but if
    there aren't other people, if it's just you, then I think you have to
    have God.  Somebody by whom you can step out of the shadow of your own
    experience, be flexible, like a person in general.

    Does it make sense what I'm saying?  These are the conversations where
    there is a spiritual flutter, which I think is most heightened when
    there is a rapid change of who is stepping in, who is stepping out.  You
    can't orchestrate it very much, because when you're stepped in, you're
    so swept up in what you're saying and feeling that you can't control
    yourself all that much.  Then we let go of that, and we can look around
    at where the conversation is moving.  You can help a conversation by
    switching back and forth between the two.  And when people do this, then
    this spiritual flutter kicks in.  It's very real, and I think, from a
    Christian point of view, I think it's fair to call that the Holy Spirit.

    I've felt this in small "charismatic" churches that I've visited, when
    people simply pray together.  I think the above description works,
    people are switching back and forth between stepping in, immersing
    themselves in prayer, and stepping out, sensing the atmosphere of
    prayer.  The prayer might be silent, or they might be speaking in
    tongues.  It's disturbing, in a positive way.  I also sense this in my
    friend Shuhong's, and his brother Tong's little Chinese church in San
    Diego, at their bible study.  They read a section, and then mostly they
    just talk what they feel inspired to "share", which may or may not play
    off of the text.  In Chicago, I'm in the choir at my parish, St.Benedict
    the African's, and some times we'll hit a song where that happens, where
    there is a feedback in the atmosphere, and many times we don't.  You're
    singing away, but then you step out, and help the song move, and you
    then you find yourself back in, and it's flickering through the whole
    church.  Dee - Davretta! - is our choir director, tremendously great
    leader, and she improvises what we'll do, so we have to follow her, and
    be mindful.

    I think it also happens here, in our discussion group.  You write:

    "I read your current message and my immediate language-response, my
    computer-brain response is: impatience. Must I  hack my way through a
    forest of concepts? Then I step back from the computer-brain reaction
    and go into intuitive-mode, and my impatience disappears. I start to
    sense rather than to think about what you are communicating. And it's
    intuition, rather than thought, which gives me a translation of your
    language so that I can assimilate it.  So now I can interpret, in my own
    words, what I sense that you are saying (tell me if I'm wrong?)"

    Something happened there, I don't know what, and maybe we can't know.  I
    think it involves switches from stepping in to stepping out, or the
    other way around. You read my letter again, you think, it's not so hard
    to just look for the flow, where is Andrius going?  You understand, that
    a lot of the words that I or Steve or others use are just markers for
    concepts, reference points that we want to be able to come back to.  We
    want to capture the structure that we're mapping, as it unfolds.  So the
    writing can sound awkward and mechanical.  I may find that my own
    structures are very helpful and potent, and then for me it all crashes
    down, it loses touch with reality, it just becomes a bunch of
    squiggles.  Then I realize that I have to go back to real life, get back
    in touch with real issues, tap into life.  Everyday life is the best.
    You translated my letter back into everyday life. This is very helpful
    for me, because it let's me check whether I've gone too far adrift.
    There's also all kinds of questions that spring up, trying to explain my
    feelings why I wouldn't choose the words you do, I might not mark them
    the way you do.  You give me new feelings to explore.

    For me, that's very productive, if we can, through our letters, both
    step in, and step out.  That's a reason to have a laboratory like Minciu
    Sodas, and discussion groups like this one.  It's also a reason for
    worrying, how do we structure such a laboratory, and such groups, so
    that this happens?  It does seem helpful to have people who care to read
    our letters, and writers who support each other, and leaders who worry
    that we move forward.  We have people who are open to each other.
     
     

    I want to add something that I think is more important than this
    spiritual flutter, Holy Spirit, Truth.  Did you ever go to church, or
    temple, or synagogue, or other place, and spiritually feel alone?  I'm
    Roman Catholic, and I always feel that way at church, in the end.  I
    feel that people are closed to me.  But I also feel God is open to me,
    and I can be with God, as much as I can, and the rest doesn't matter one
    bit.  And that's much more important than any of that flutter, because
    that is the one God.  So, from this point of view, most important is to
    be open to God.

    But, second, it's important to be open to each other, because that way
    we can step out from what makes us particular.  I think that's what
    Jesus taught, and I think what he meant when he said, "If you hold to my
    teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and
    the truth will set you free."  If we are open to each other, then we are
    open to this spiritual flutter, and we will know the truth, and we are
    open to all truth.  Something like that, I'm just "marking" this.

    Furthermore, I feel that, if there is somebody honest, they have the
    right to dismiss that spiritual flutter.  But then, how can they be
    touched by truth?  Only if the truth is tangible, something that they
    can touch.  I have the right to bring to them tangible truth, that they
    may have it.  I care that I myself be honest, so I might be able to
    bring it, and they certainly should check me regarding that.  But if
    they are honest, then I want to have tangible truth to bring them.  My
    expectation of God is that this tangible truth be available.  If that's
    right, then we don't have to obey - be open to God, we don't have to
    believe - be open to each other, we just have to be honest - be open to
    the truth, and the rest will follow.  If we're not honest, what more can
    be done?  If we're not honest, then who are we?

    I don't know how this makes sense within your own faith.  But in my
    faith, I know the Bible has a lot of "loose cannons", and the one that
    strikes me, that gives authority, is at the Last Supper, in the Gospel
    of John, where Jesus says:  "I have much more to say, but you cannot
    bear it now.  But when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into
    all truth.  He will not speak on his own, but he will only speak what he
    hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.  He will bring glory to
    me by taking what is mine and making it known to you.  All that belongs
    to the Father is mine. That's why I said that the Spirit will take from
    what's mine and make it known to you."

    The funny thing about that passage is that we never find out, to my
    knowledge, what we couldn't bear that he had to say?  I've never met
    anybody who wondered what that was!

    Just an aside, I try to decode what Jesus says, what are the "markers"
    that he thinks in terms of.  For example, when he says that X is a child
    of Y, then he'll say that he means that X does just like Y does.  If you
    were a child of Abraham, then you'd do what Abraham did, etc.!  But if
    he says that X is a Son of Y, then he'll say that he means that Y has
    shown X how to do it.  I think that's the difference when he says he's
    the Son of God, that God showed him how to do it, and the Son of Man,
    that Man showed him how to do it; in other words, he knew of the plight
    of and the ways of man, because man showed him.  So up above, by that
    logic, we'd be the Sons of Truth, if Truth showed us how to do it.

    So I'm glad I could share so much of my outlook, because it's so hard,
    without any context.  Annette and Marjorie wrote several months ago
    about the dangers of extreme honesty.  I do think that honesty is
    apocalyptic, because it doesn't leave any room for options.  Another
    thing Christ said, as to why he spoke in parables to the crowd, to those
    who did not yet believe, is so that they CAN not-believe.  In other
    words, they can choose to understand it, or they can choose to not
    understand, to the degree they wish.  The churches, I think, all read it
    differently, so that they CAN-NOT believe!  That doesn't make any sense!
    and I'd be bold enough to challenge God on that, as Job did.  There's
    things worth challenging God over, even though it just means that he
    sets us straight.  I myself do believe in extreme honesty, because it
    forces me to be open to others, and to God, by showing all my
    weaknesses.  It doesn't make sense to me that God could put us in a
    situation where we'd have to be dishonest.

    I want to relate this back to "caring about thinking", and "caring about
    God", and "caring about others".  These are all markers, concepts that
    make sense within a system.

    First: "caring about thinking".  If you divide Everything into three
    parts, then I think you'll always come up with, in one form or another:
    1) taking a stand 2) following through 3) reflecting  You can picture
    this in, I think, four different ways: A) being, doing, thinking, B) as
    many, as one, as all, C) on object, on process, on subject  D)
    necessarily, actually, possibly.  We also have terms that go beyond the
    pictures, back to the underlying unity of the pictures, such as: 1) God
    the Father, 2) the Son, 3) the Holy Spirit.  Here's it's important that
    some things in our minds we do picture, and some things we don't.  This
    kind of stuff is extremely slippery because we have to be on our toes,
    because there's a tremendous difference between the underlying idea and
    the expression = picture = representation of that idea.  The trick is to
    slow our minds down to a creep, and then walk through our thinking.
    This kind of technique is called introspection, looking within yourself,
    and it's very error-prone, as soon as we let sneak in a layer of
    reflection.  But in every day words, walking through a system of ideas,
    and making sure they feel right, is a powerful thing to do.
    Introspection of the kind I describe is where you keep trying to guess
    what the system must be like, and then check by trying to walk through,
    to see if it's true.  It's probably another form of this "step in",
    "step out" thing.

    Anyways, "caring about being", "caring about doing", "caring about
    thinking" are three different angles.  I think they are related to,
    obedience, belief, honesty, in some complex way.  What I've written
    above makes me think that obedience is being open to God, belief is
    being open to each other, and honesty is being open to ourselves, the
    connection between God and others.  Also, "caring" is tightly related to
    love, to supporting something so that it is alive.

    If we cared about being, then we'd be obedient.  And if we cared about
    doing, then we'd be believers.  So maybe if we care about thinking, at
    least we'll be honest.  And if we're truly honest, then we'll believe
    and obey.

    If we care about God, then I imagine that we want to make an opening for
    God, maybe by stepping back.  I wrote about this in my last letter.  If
    I care about others, then I imagine that as a big chimney, an upsidedown
    funnel, that goes through me from the narrow end, up above that ends
    with God, who I can't actually see, but I can talk with, down wide to
    earth, where we are surrounded by the world.  So we want to keep this
    clear, and open.  Maybe we do this by stepping in.  I don't know, this
    is where I wanted to go next, in my thoughts.  But I think, here too, we
    care for others by being open to them.  We are open to them perhaps by
    offering ourselves as an open channel.  So with others, we let them go
    through us, but with God we step aside, so he can be there, directly.  I
    don't know, but I think this will be a fruitful thing to think through.
    Of course, it's been very helpful to have taken these unexpected turns.

    If you have thoughts on any of this, you are very welcome to write, or
    to launch off in other directions.  If you feel the wish to express
    yourself in terms of your faith, or sources for your faith, please do
    so.  I have found that I have trouble reading spiritual texts of other
    traditions, important books like the Koran, or Buddhist or Hindu texts,
    without the insight from a believer.  I tell myself that books of faith
    wish to be read with belief, with investment, and at that point I feel
    that I should invest myself in the books of my own faith.  I do wish to
    be more open, but it certainly would be so much simpler if you shared
    your faith, and then we can look for our "markers" and what they mean,
    and why they are there, and what is the reality behind them.

    When I started up the laboratory almost three years ago, I didn't have
    any of this in mind.  But certainly most of what I myself have gotten
    has been from progress made on these issues.  It's great to write to
    you, and also to continuously work on the overall structure of the
    laboratory, which is a mirror for all of life, at least everything worth
    thinking about.  In any event, these matters are of practical
    importance, because this is one way that I figure out what's the right
    structure for the Minciu Sodas laboratory, and the system of endeavors
    that we might pursue.  Another way is simply if you or I suggest
    endeavors, which I think should yield the same results.  So I hope to
    work on both at the same time.


    Andrius  1/14/2001
     
     
     
     
     
     
     


    Andrius 1/15/2001
     
     

    Now I want to tackle part of that.  I want to describe "caring about
    others", specifically, the ways of loving our neighbors.  I wrote of
    caring about God by way of introduction, to keep this in perspective,
    and watch out for how the two might fit together.

    I will be looking at many different structures that I think shed light
    on the ways of loving our neighbors.  Back in August I wrote a series of
    letters "Who is my neighbor?" that discussed several of these
    structures.  I will be returning to them and adding more.  Structurally,
    the basic one is the "qualities of signs", which says that there are
    four levels of knowledge by which we can approach a sign (symbol, index,
    icon, thing).  There are six qualities that a sign should have:
    malleable, modifiable, mobile, memorable, meaningful, motivated.  We can
    describe these qualities using pairs of those levels of knowledge.  That
    is why there are six of them, there are six ways of making such pairs.

    Furthermore, these pairs of levels have a very interesting property,
    that one level stays the same, but the other level changes.  For
    example, if the thing stays the same - which it always does - but the
    icon=picture for it can change, then we have a "malleable" sign.  This
    is a key property, and so with every structure below I will be asking,
    what stays the same, and what changes?

    That this is a key property is apparent from the basic idea "Love your
    neighbor as yourself".  What stays the same, and what changes?  Well,
    your love should be the same, even though the person loved changes -
    whether it's you or your neighbor.  That gets to the heart of "love your
    neighbor as yourself", makes it even deeper than simply "love others",
    because it says that your love should be the same, even though the
    person you love is different.

    Here is a list of the structures that I will be looking at:

    Negative commandments
    Interpretations by Jesus
    Reasons for caring
    Logics of the heart
    Representations of anything
    Visualizations
    Qualities of signs
    Spaces for work
    Pretexts for outreach
    Objectives through gain

    I will start by describing them, then I will ask: what stays the same,
    and what changes?  I will try to draw some conclusions.  When I get
    stuck, I think I'll start asking What do I care about?  What do you care
    about?

    It's helpful that I can write these letters here.  But feel free to
    delete them, or skim over them.  Certainly it might be helpful to just
    read through to get the flow, as Natalie noted, and you can always
    reread portions.  Don't feel that you have to understand anything in
    order to respond.  Anything that this might trigger is certainly
    interesting.

    Yours,

    Andrius



    Andrius 1/16/01

    Some of our groups are open to all, and some are closed, that is, only
    for members of the Minciu Sodas laboratory.  Members can subscribe to as
    many of our groups as they like.

    minciu_sodas_en@egroups.com is open to all, and in English (at least if
    you want to be understood!)  This is a gateway for people who might like
    to help with our laboratory, and possibly become members.  So we'll
    discuss anything that could have to do with our mission, which is to
    foster "caring about thinking".  This is also the headquarters where I
    come to discuss the overall structure and strategy for our laboratory.
    We also support endeavors that are building critical mass, such as Steve
    Raiff's Make Work Fun! at http://www.brainfarming.com (assuming he's not
    rebuilding his website).  Or the Heart-to-Heart Support Network with
    David Ellison-Bey.  Finally, I come here with my own personal
    explorations, which may touch upon "caring about thinking", or the
    structure of the laboratory, in only some "higly underspecified" way
    (the latter term is an inside joke with Cass ;)  You're welcome to do
    this, also.  I keep this group open, partly as advertising, partly as
    fun, and mostly because for the most crucial things in the laboratory
    I'm happy to suffer the most vigorous criticism.  (Of course, as
    critics, we're underachievers, or I'm clueless. I love your support, all
    the same.)  We also have an analogous open group in Lithuanian,
    minciu_sodas_lt@egroups.com

    ourownthoughts@egroups.com is our first working group, and it's closed
    to members.  We discuss the work of this particular working group, which
    is fostering "thinking about our own thoughts".  The plan is to have 10
    working groups in all, reflecting the structure of the objectives of the
    laboratory.  This particular working group is developing a standard,
    called Mindset, for software tools for organizing thoughts, such as
    http://www.thebrain.com , http://www.mindmanager.com ,
    http://thoughtstream.org , http://www.memes.net ,
    http://www.openideaproject.org , http://freemind.sourceforge.net  and
    others.   We want to develop a community, a society of tools for
    amplifying our thinking.  It's an "illustrious" group, people who have
    demonstrated passion for making or using such tools.  If you're not into
    that, then you may find our letters quite dull, mostly because they can
    be obscurely technical.  Everybody is welcome to read our letters at
    http://www.egroups.com/messages/ourownthoughts/  but only members can
    contribute letters.  We function as a networking club, getting to know
    each other as we work together.

    You're a member if you're listed at http://www.ms.lt/ms/members.html
    John is a member, and so is Cass, Natalie, Marjorie, Caspar.  They all
    became members for free, by contributing something to our laboratory
    that we could use for our compilations, in the public domain.  For
    example, Cass and Marjorie and John all answered Raimundas Vaitkevicius'
    survey "Do you organize your thoughts?"  Caspar contributed some
    software that he created to the public domain.  You can also become a
    member by paying a membership fee, $300 for twelve months.  Then you're
    welcome to join all of our groups, which is the main perk.  Supposedly,
    this helps our working groups get more done, because it let's people
    show that they are willing to contribute work to the public domain, or
    money to the laboratory, to get things done.  This threshhold has kept
    away a few "trolls", nonconstructive people.  We end up with people who
    are generous of themselves.  Also, it helps me remember that we're not a
    charity, so if we're a business, doesn't there have to be a threshhold
    somewhere?  So this is one of them, who should I devote my time to?  Our
    members.

    Some of our greatest supporters, and most active people at
    minciu_sodas_en@egroups.com  are not members.  For example, I love
    Annette's letters, and David Ellison-Bey's, and they both have helped me
    very much, but neither is a member, at least not yet.  Martin Luther
    King Jr. pointed out, I think, that a healthy organization always has a
    wider movement around it.  I'm overhauling the laboratory, so there's a
    lot to rethink.  I do want to find more ways that people can help with
    our work, become members, and participate in our working groups.


    1/17/2001

    I'm going through various structures that can shed light on the ways of
    caring about others.

    -------------------------
    Negative commandments
    -------------------------
    Interpretations by Jesus
    Pretexts for outreach
    Reasons for caring
    Logics of the heart
    ------------------------
    Objectives through gain
    Spaces for work
    ------------------------
    Representations of anything
    Properties of complex adaptive systems
    Visualizations
    Qualities of signs
    ------------------------
     

    Negative commandments
          The Jewish Torah, and the Christian Bible, start with the Five
    Books of Moses.  One of these is Exodus, and another is Deuteronomy, and
    they both contain the Ten Commandments. Deuteronomy is like a "second
    edition", a retelling of the key points of the law of Moses.  There's a
    lot of evidence in Scriptures that God is redundant!  Perhaps partly for
    our sake.  Also, I think redundancy makes for slack, and good is slack.
          I think four of the commandments have to do with our relationship
    with God: Have no gods before him, not take the name of God in vain,
    keep the sabbath, honor father and mother.  And six have to do with our
    relationship with others: Do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not
    steal, do not bear false witness, do not desire your neighbor's wife, do
    not desire your neighbor's property.  There is a lot of room for
    quibbling.  But I think that the first four are positive commandments,
    they command what we should do, with regard to God.  And I think that
    the last six are negative commandments, they command what we should not
    do, with regard to others.  And there is redundancy here, which shows
    the greatness of God, that even if we simply heed the negative
    commandments, then the postive commandments will also fall into place.
    And if we heed the positive commandments, then we will surely never need
    the negative commandments.  So there's no excuses!
          I've never known much what to do with this structure, but now that
    so many things are coming together of the form 6+4, it seems that this
    must be a central organizing framework.  Where I can, I try to guess
    God' point of view, it can make for rapid advances, just as in solving
    hard math programs it helps to guess what will be the right answer, and
    then work backwards from your guess.  I think God likes to say, "this
    was so obvious, the most obvious thing, and you refused to look!"  I
    seriously doubt that the answers to deep questions are most readily
    found in quantum physics, or relativity, or from extraterrestrials.  My
    bet is that they are all in the simplest stuff, so it's worth looking
    very honestly at the simplest stuff.  It would make complete sense if
    God said, "structure is My Law, everything is organized according to My
    Law, why didn't you look at My Law?"
    As I write, I'm looking at Exodus and Deutoronomy, at the long
    explanations of the Law.  Some of it has to do with specific instances
    of the Ten Commandments, and it's very interesting.  For example, if
    there is a false witness, then "you shall do to him what he thought to
    have done to his brother", which resonates quite strongly with "love
    your neighbor as yourself"!  Or if you poke out the eye of your servant,
    then you must set them free, which resonates with Christ's "if your eye
    causes you to sin, pluck it out".  For me, it will be time well spent if
    I go through everything I can find in the Law that can be organized in
    terms of the ten commandments, and try to make sense of it.  If you can
    draw on books of your faith, that will be very interesting.

    Interpretations by Jesus
    Pretexts for outreach
    Reasons for caring
    Logics of the heart
          Even more obvious then the written Law is our own intuition of the
    way we relate to God, and especially, to our neighbors.  In the summer I
    looked closely at how Jesus interprets the commandments, which I suppose
    he did in terms of the same basic human intuition that we have, but
    avoid.  You can find it in the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew, where he
    says "you have heard it said... Thou shall not kill ...  but I say to
    you..."  And also, very closely related, in Jerusalem he lambasts the
    scribes and Pharisees, "woe to you, hypocrites..."  I'll want to revisit
    this, but the conclusions that I drew were that he challenges us not to
    focus on the sign, but on the signified: "Be Open rather than
    Comfortable", "Take a Stand rather than Convince", "Come to Our Senses
    rather than Measure", "Get Along rather than Judge", "Save rather than
    Blame", "Be Unconditional rather than Be Consistent".  He goes real
    deep, so I'll want to keep trying to better capture his logic.
          Also in the summer, I asked, what are the ways that I get myself
    to reach out to my neighbor.  Again, I found six lines of thinking that
    help me do this.  For example, "I am happy, and have gifts which may
    keep me happy.  But I received them not for anything I did.  I could
    have been born in awful circumstances, I sometimes imagine Cambodia,
    where even these gifts might be useless, and life might be very
    miserable and short.  If I think these are useful gifts, then I have a
    responsibility to use them to serve those who do not have my good
    fortune, and to reach out to them.  This is what they would want me to
    do."  So I think such lines of thinking are very closely related, and
    they help me climb out of myself, which makes them great structures.
          Another promising direction is to consider, "Why would I care
    about a living system?"  This came up in trying to understand our
    relationship to complex adaptive systems, which might be an ecosystem,
    organism, organ, society, community, economy, the weather, anything that
    might behave like a living system.  Asking the question taps into our
    relationship with such a system, why might we care?  This can help
    relate to the six representations of anything, discussed further below.
          Also, the idea of focusing on the signified rather than the sign
    reminds me of the good will exercises.  I worked on those for a couple
    of years, and I'll have to write that up.  They were in response to
    situations where our heart says one thing, the world says another, and
    we want to follow our heart.  Actually, it turns out to be quite tricky
    to figure out what the heart says, and what the worlds says, but there
    are some very amazing rules for sorting them out.  One is that on any
    issue you can address four questions: whether? what? how? why? If we
    think of why as the broadest question, and whether as the narrowest,
    then the heart always asks a broader question than the world.  There's
    also a lot more that we can tap into as far as how the truth of the
    heart, and the truth of the world relate.

    Objectives through gain
    Spaces for work
          These questions are actually quite closely related to the activity
    of the laboratory.  That's because I think the success of our laboratory
    in fostering "caring about thinking" comes from our being completely
    comprehensive.  We do all things, and therefore we can capture all of
    the resulting synergy.  We therefore gain many insights simply by
    dealing with the challenge of being comprehensive.
          One of these challenges is organizing ourselves for the many
    endeavors that we might possibly have.  Based on the ones that we have,
    and could imagine, I ended up with a system of ten objectives, which has
    served quite well.  Four we pursue through material loss: caring about
    God, relationship with God, relationship with others, others.  Six we
    pursue through material gain: thinking about our own thoughts, actions,
    stands, and other thoughts, actions, stands.  So this is where that 4+6
    structure popped up, and you can see why I'm most happy about how
    working on the laboratory so comprehensively has helped me make progress
    on basic questions of life.
          Now I'm spending a lot of energy, especially in
    ourownthoughts@egroups.com to figure out how to structure the laboratory
    as a workspace, for example, how to structure the website?  Here there
    is a lot of evidence for a structure of the form 1+1+6.  For example, we
    moderate a very active group for Knowledge Management, kmci@egroups.com
    The kinds of issues that interest people suggest that there should be
    six working groups, for working on Knowledge Networks, Concepts,
    Formats, Discourses, Experiences, Cultures.  And there should be two
    gateways, one based on issues, kmci@egroups.com and one based on meeting
    people kmci-virtual-chapter@egroups.com moderated by our member Denham
    Grey.

    Representations of anything
    Properties of complex adaptive systems
    Visualizations
    Qualities of signs
          Finally, there are the purely structural facts.  These last few
    years I have been taking a fresh look at all of the structures that I've
    observed and work with.  I think they fall into ten families.  Four of
    them have immediate practical value, and they relate to our needs,
    doubts, expectations, trials.  I wrote last week that there are four
    representations of Everything, and they are intimately related to these,
    and to the ways of caring about God, with all our strength, our mind,
    our soul, our heart.
          Another six families of structure don't seem to have any real
    practical value for everyday life, at least not yet, and maybe never.
    But they are the machinery for explaining everything about life.  I
    don't know all the details, but I'm getting close, it seems.  There are
    three tables of structure: eight divisions, six criteria, twelve
    topologies.  There are also three languages: narration (how things come
    to happen), argumentation (how things come to matter), verbalization
    (how things come to mean).  Some big holes are nailing down some of the
    larger divisions: fivesome (for space & time), the sixsome (what makes
    us human), and the sevensome (for slack).  I need to get a better handle
    on how to define the criteria, and how the topologies relate with the
    other structures.  I don't know anything specific about argumentation or
    verbalization.  But right now the big progress to be made is
    understanding the overview for all of these structures.
          I think these six families are intimately related to the
    representations of anything, of which there should be six.  The
    difference between anything and everything is that you can think of
    anything in ways that you can't think of everything.  I imagine it this
    way: Anything can always be thought of as Everything, a kind of "local
    version of everything".  But furthermore, anything can be part of a
    system, in which case we think about it by separating it from the
    system, which we have to do by approximating.  The approximation
    requires slack, and the slack can be increasing or decreasing.  So
    Everything+Slack = Anything, and if we put flesh on those bones, we get
    God+Good = Life.  (Aside: I'm curious how Anything and Anybody relate,
    if Anything+Slack=Anybody, and what does that mean? and the
    consequences? but structural thinking is a slippery goose, so it's good
    to note doubts).  More notes are at
    http://www.ms.lt/ms/projects/reasonfeatures/index.html
          I'm very interested in trying to pull together this system, which
    is a major reason why I'm so interested now in making sense of "caring
    about others".  That is one of the big keys.  Of course, it's also good
    to keep my mind on that because it really is such an important part of
    life, and also I don't end up in a bad place.  So I have multiple
    motives, but I think this is a way for me to do something useful with my
    "having nothing better to do" by intertwining it with "the wonderfulness
    of caring about others".
          Anything is a place holder for Life, so the representations of
    Anything should be intimately related to the properties of living
    systems, complex adaptive systems, and I've been able to use some great
    work from Hidden Order by John Holland regarding those properties.  I've
    also been able to relate those properties to the visualizations that are
    an important part of my draft of the Mindset standard.
          Finally, there are the six qualities of signs, of which I wrote,
    and which involve those pairs of levels.  Structurally they should be
    very relevant here.  But it's also noteworthy to me how much Jesus talks
    about signs.  I think it would be fair to say that Life is the sign of
    God, that Life is the sign, and God is the signified.  A question being,
    what are the answers that we can live with?  This might be such an
    answer.  If so, then the qualities of signs are indeed key.
          It's been helpful considering all of these different structures.
    Now I'll start looking for themes that run across all of them.  I think
    I'll start with the question what stays the same, and what changes?
    This will help identify pairs of levels, as in the case of each of the
    qualities of signs.


    1/18/2001

    It was helpful writing my letter about all the different structures I
    can draw on, as I search for the ways of caring about others.  I'm
    starting to look over that letter, making a list of key themes that
    these structures may share.

    Something that strikes me is the notion of "self".  The idea "love your
    neighbor as yourself" says, so simply, that the people I love are
    different, but my love should be the same.  The most basic difference
    between all of these people is that most of them are not ME!  "Self" is
    the idea that separates me from all those other people.

    So there's two points of view, one where there is no concept of self,
    and that's how we should love.  And the other point of view is that
    there is a concept of self, our own self, and that is, in some sense,
    different from the others.  If "self" is a fence, then what difference
    is there, which side of the fence somebody is on? Why have this concept
    at all?  There must be some reason?

    Then I thought about the four kinds of structure that are related to how
    we care about God, how we make room for God, with regard to our needs,
    doubts, expectations, trials.  In each one of these structures, the role
    of "self" is very important, in different ways.  Here "self" is a
    distinction between us and God.  I am bounded, but he is not bounded.
    So the concept of "self" helps define our relationship, which is
    probably the whole reason for the concept.

    I also noticed that, for these four kinds of structures, regarding our
    needs - doubts - expectations - trials, it seems plausible that they
    each allow for a different kind of outlook.

    A) We have needs, and God does not.  He is the one who lacks nothing.
    Here I think the concept of "self" has to do with the fact that we have
    operating principles, and we can apply them either with respect to our
    needs, or with respect to God.  For example, the operating principle "be
    normal - avoid extremes", we can apply this with regard to our self, to
    satisfy our social need, or we can apply this with regard to God, and
    follow his way, the example he sets.

    B) We have doubts, and God does not.  He is the one for whom all things
    are just as he wishes.  Here I think the concept of "self" has to do
    with the shadow of our experience.  There are counterquestions that
    allow us to go outside that shadow, or shrink back within it.  For
    example, Doubt: "Is this truly real?"  Counterquestion: "Would it make a
    difference?"  Going outside the shadow of experience:  "It's real, in
    that it doesn't make any difference - it's always there."  Shrinking
    into the shadow of experience: "It's real, in that it makes a
    difference."

    C) We have expectations, and God does not.  He is the one for whom all
    that happens is good.  Here I think the concept of "self" has to do with
    the extent to which our outlook is with regard to everything, the
    entirety.  If so, then we feel sensitive, positive, calm.  Otherwise, to
    the extent that our outlook is with regard to anything, not everything,
    then we feel insensitive, negative, aroused

    D) We have trials, and God does not.  He is the one who loves us - wants
    us to be alive, sensitive and responsive - more than we love
    ourselves.   When we are connected with this God, then we prefer to have
    him than us be, act, think.  When we are separated from him, then we
    hope that he watches over our "self" so that we can take a stand, follow
    through, and reflect.

    So there is a rich notion of self, and also non-self, in each of A, B, C
    and D.  I'm now looking for pairs of levels, where on one level, there
    is a notion of self, and on the other there is a notion of non-self.
    This will give six pairs of self and non-self from different levels,
    assuming that non-self is always from a higher level.  For this to make
    sense, level D should always have us look from only the point of view of
    non-self.  Indeed, this seems to be the case, because when I'm dealing
    with a God who loves me more than I love myself, my outlook is always
    rooting for him, including him.  And level A should always have us look
    from only the point of view of self.  This is also seems to be the case,
    when I am addressing my needs, then it's never part of my outlook that
    one could have no needs.  That's a lonesome God, the one who lacks
    nothing!  And even if I apply my operating principles with respect to
    him, rather than my own needs, even though I can do this, my mental
    outlook always ignores this, I have to do it without any push from my
    mind.  The middle levels B and C seem to let me look either way, either
    take an inclusive point of view, with respect to God, or just stick with
    my self.

    The upshot of the obscure paragraph above is that I can very likely draw
    on the structures A, B, C, D as four different ways that our self is
    defined with respect to God.  This expresses our boundedness with
    respect to God.  Then pairs of self and non-self are pulled together,
    yielding six different ways that our self may be defined with respect to
    others.  This playing field is of crucial interest to God.  He is the
    one God, so he wants the God in A, B, C, D to all be the same God.  I
    think the six different pairs are ways of checking whether or not he is
    the same God.  This whole question relies on whether the concept of
    "self" makes sense with regard to others, for example, maybe it is the
    channel by which the love of God is available to others.

    So I'll keep looking at this big picture, and try to figure out how the
    "self" defined with respect to God, and the "self" defined with respect
    to others, are related.  A simple question is, what is value of the
    concept of "self"?


    1/20/2001

    David, It's very good to hear from you, and I hope you write more for us
    about your life because I think that there's a lot to care about, and
    think about there.  And that's an open invitation for all of us.

    Marjorie, Thanks for your question, and it's very good to hear from
    Andrew, and I hope you can write regularly, whether fiction or
    non-fiction or in-between.  My sister gave me "The Blind Assassin" by
    Margaret Atwood, and forgive me, Marjorie, but it reminds me of you.
    Maybe because it's so literate but down-to-earth.

    Also, Visalia has a Border's bookstore.  About a week ago I checked out
    the philosophy section, I keep asking myself "What's worth reading?"  I
    saw some of the old classics, and I thumbed through a book by Leibniz
    and saw the word spirit.  It dawned on me that he meant it in a very
    open way, like how do we know whether or not there are spirits?  He
    lived in an age where people still believed in ghosts, and he probably
    was on his toes about that himself, and had to be sharp about it with
    his mind.  So those questions were not a joke.  And in the recent
    centuries there's not much philosophy left that has direct connection
    with life.  It's pretty sterile stuff.

    Thanks for the topic about the ghosts and precognition, it's interesting
    what that might bring out.  It's certainly one that I avoid, under the
    general rule, "Is this one of the minimal requirements of life?"

    Can somebody be human
    without having any contact with ghosts?
    or without having ESP?
    or without regular vision?
    Surely they are.

    Can somebody be human
    without any ability to picture?
    without any form of causal thinking?
    without any sense of potential others?
    Most likely not.

    Can somebody be human without having spooky episodes?
    without various forms of fear or fright?
    without the unknown, strange coincidences?
    Probably not.

    Can somebody be human without falling in love?
    Maybe, maybe not.

    Can somebody be human without the potential to fall in love?
    Probably not.

    A good example of the kind of list worth collecting.  Anthropologists
    have interesting things to say.  But simply asking ourselves, what about
    us seems basic, necessary for us to engage another, and what seems
    peripheral?  That's very interesting.

    There do seem to be "distracting ideas" that people run to, that aren't
    central to life.  You can spend a long time entertaining the idea of
    "ghosts", but be closed to the thought that there's "truth", or "good",
    or "God".  We can look for special powers, or special knowledge, but
    surely everything we need is right before us, but we don't look at
    that.  All of the powerful structures, questions and answers that we
    might need have always been inside our minds, and all of the examples of
    what is good and right surround us in people that we dismiss.

    For example, it may be funky that you can think about Doug before he
    reaches you.  But is that useful?  It's dead obvious, though, that
    people who threaten to kill you, like his girlfriend's father, they mean
    what they say.  There's truth in everything we say, and certainly a lot
    of evidence, that when people talk about serious stuff, like killing
    themselves or others, it's one of the last things they can do before
    following through.  And if they don't mean what they say, then I think
    it's because they're not accountable for what they say, which is also
    dangerous because we can't figure them out, it's the basic evidence we
    have of their state of mind.  My rule of thumb is that if somebody
    crosses that line, and threatens like that, I want them to know - or
    somebody to know - that I respond to that, they've gone too far.  That's
    useful, and obvious, and alive, and human.

    It's stimulating, though, to dance around the boundary of distraction.
    Please, write about any topic that you feel relates, by whatever organ
    of feeling that may urge you!  David, Andrew, Marjorie, I like that
    there's a nice dose of real life in your letters!
     


    1/22/01

    I'm trying to figure out, what are the ways of caring about others?  I'm
    pulling together a lot of evidence as to  how they might be structured.
    I'm trying to focus on the overall structure.

    Why am I doing this?  I don't know.  It should, I think, help structure
    our work at the laboratory.  Our research is public, and I think the
    real value, perhaps only value, of doing research publicly is that you
    get synergy.  Some of the work is in one direction, some is in another,
    and they build on each other in remarkable ways.  For this to happen,
    the work can't be muddled.  It has to have clear focus, and also has to
    be open.

    But that's just an application, that's not why I'm working on this.
    This quest is maybe related to my outlook.  I typically think life, or
    maybe just my mind, is a prison.  I didn't choose to be here.  My mind
    places incredible limitations on what I can do.  So my strategy is to
    play off of those limitations.  I run into them headlong, and show to
    myself that they are really there.  That way I can map out the walls of
    my mind, as if I was a blind person walking through them.  Furthermore,
    my own efforts are shaped by my mind.  So I keep finding more of what
    actually is part of my mind, and what is not.  In this way I shake loose
    of my mind.  Maybe I can live past the walls of my mind.  Maybe they
    shape what comes to me, but they don't have to shape what comes from
    me.  It's always helpful to analyze motives, especially our own. I hope
    to keep rethinking my own as we move forward.

    I want to find the key ideas, the key themes that are at the bottom of
    all the information I'm collecting as to how we care about others.  On
    the big
    questions, the unifying questions, I think they make sense from God's
    point of view, so I raise the question, how does God look at that?

    I'm curious what you think, how does God look at things?  What do you
    believe, know, picture or wish?  If you prefer, how does Everything look
    at things?  I think that's just as interesting.

    I'll go through some ways of raising this question, the ones that I'm
    familiar with.

    There's one method that we can apply without knowing anything of God.
    It comes from considering, how do things have to be so that they truly
    are as we wish?  For example, Marjorie wrote: "Why there should be pain
    and suffering in the world is a huge problem for me."  What we (Marjorie
    and I?) would like is that God is good.  He may or may not be good, he
    may
    or may not even exist.  But we certainly wish him, or Everything to be
    good.
    And we know that there is bad, there is real awful suffering.  When we
    step outside of our own culture, and look at another, I think we become
    alert to evil.  There's one solution, that says that for there to be
    good, there must be bad, and vice versa.  Basically, that solution is
    called "karma", very important in the life of India, I think.  That
    explains why there is bad, but it doesn't satisfy our wish, that
    Everything be good.  Furthermore, it seems to diminish the entire
    concept of good, if it is always complemented by bad.  The two are then
    symmetrical, and therefore structurally indistinguishable.  Another
    solution is that Everything is actually good, but it just sometimes look
    bad.  But that solution does not satisfy our wish that what we see and
    feel be important, especially that our capacity for feeling is
    important, that we can suffer, and that we do.  Certain people seem to
    suffer much more than ourselves, and that seems important, too.  Another
    solution, that I feel very comfortable with, is that Everything is a
    "megalomaniac", that is, Everything wants it all.  Everything doesn't
    want just some good, it wants ALL THE GOOD, all possible good.  Some of
    this good could stand by itself, without any bad.  But some of this good
    comes along with bad.  Everything wants ALL OF THE GOOD.  The nice thing
    about this solution is that it keeps good and bad separate, there
    doesn't have to be bad for there to be good.  So we don't dilute the
    concept of good.  Instead we let Everything extend it.  I guess the bad
    side is that we don't quite get to say that Everything is good.
    Instead, we say that Everything is a megalomaniac, who happens to want
    there to be good, in his megalomaniac sort of way, and for reasons
    unknown.  I feel comfortable because it explains why there is bad, but
    leaves the question open as to whether Everything is good.  Everything
    doesn't have to be good, but maybe he is, we have to learn more.

    This kind of reasoning help get at the "motive" behind a concept.  For
    example, is there a motive to the concept of "reincarnation"?  Well,
    does it satisfy some wish?  It reminds me of the wish that our life be
    meaningful, and that how we choose to live our life have important
    consequences.  It also addresses the observation that our lives end, and
    that it's usually not clear if there was any point to all of our
    efforts.  Combining the wish and the observation leads us to a concept
    of "after life" of one form or another.  We also wish that our life
    choices have some relevance that we can appreciate, with regard to the
    current life we live.  So there has to be some kind of "loop back" from
    the after life back to this life.  I imagine that this gets crossed up
    with the wish that all creatures are equal, in some sense.  So we can
    return as another person, or another creature.  I think certain forms of
    vegeterianism build on that, a solution for our wish to believe in
    "reincarnation", and not to eat the wrong things.  I've wandered off to
    a faith I don't know much about, but it's an example of how this method
    can be used without knowing, or believing, much of anything.

    Another way to ask, how does God look at things? is to examine the
    Scriptures of your faith.  We find there thoughts that are bigger
    than our own minds, so they must have come from somewhere else.  I don't
    mean nonsensical things, I mean the kinds of things that we admit we
    would never come up with, even though we now understand them, even after
    the fact, we simply can't think that way, or fit that much in our mind
    at one time.  On Saturday, I got the book Natalie sent me, it came very
    quickly!  Natalie, the interesting part was seeing the different parts
    you marked.  It's a short book, about 200 pages long, mostly about the
    stuff Jesus talks about in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7, which
    is about 135 sentences long.  The author seems nice enough, but my point
    is that, he thinks like us people, not like God.  Jesus says "Be
    perfect, like your heavenly father is perfect."  I've never met anybody
    else whose had the guts to tell me that!  And I don't have the guts to
    tell anybody else, except second hand, and even that is very hard and
    challenges my own self.  People say "do your best, just try", but Jesus
    never talked that.  People say, "strive for perfection", which is how we
    naturally address our need for self-fulfillment.  We're striving to get
    there, which assumes that we're not already there.  We're addressing our
    needs, be they our highest needs.  I think Jesus was saying, "Be
    perfect", "Lack nothing", "Have no needs".  God's point of view!

    So Scripture, read at face value, is at least good for a mental jolt.
    Again, I share from those of my own faith.  About what Marjorie asked,
    Jesus was shown a man blind from birth, and was asked whose fault was
    this - his or his parents?  And Jesus said it was for the glory of God,
    and then he cured him.  But there's another place where he talks about
    why the tower fell and killed people, and he says, do you think it was
    because of their fault?  But if you don't repent, you'll likewise
    perish.  So I suppose that means these are signs, lessons for us, not
    for the victims.  It's hard to figure what's on God's mind.  He seems to
    be big on glory, but I don't want to rule out love.  But that's the
    interesting thing about reading Scriptures, at least in the way that
    looks to apply it, looks for contradictions, looks to engage it and try
    it out.  These little tidbits come up: God likes King David, but he
    doesn't like King Saul.  That is, he may love us all equal, but certain
    people he likes more than others, more than me.  God seems to like good
    smells, there's all these sacrifices described, and he'll add: "And make
    sure it smells good".  International politics seems to be a hobby.
    There's a lot of peculiar things about God.  I know this helps make him
    more concrete to us, but I think there must be more to it than just
    that.

    Another way to ask, how does God look at things? is simply to ask him!
    My experience is that he's very clear, we just don't ask.  I'll write
    more about that.  "Direct lines" are an important resource.

    I look forward to your thoughts on how God looks at things?  I'm going
    to try to look at his point of view, and our point of view, regarding
    three questions:

    How do things happen?
    How do things come to matter?
    How do things get meaning?


    1/25/2001

    Thank you for inspired and inspiring letters.  Our conversation is
    alive, has a life of its own. It's a little bit like a blaze, like a
    forest fire.

    It's even better than that.  We have people who know how to feed the
    fire with sticks.  I very much appreciate how so many of us have
    wondered, how can we take the ideas that have developed and relate them
    back to "caring about thinking"?  Our conversation is self-regulating!

    Let's think of how we can harness the fire.  We can cook meat, or power
    pistons, or spread it elsewhere.  We can get things done.

    So I'm starting up a Working group otherstands@egroups.com to foster
    thinking about "other stands", not just our own.  It's a chance to "step
    out", to consider how our discussion here and elsewhere moves.  What can
    we learn from that, and what can we do to help get things done?  We'll
    pursue endeavors that help make such groups productive.

    Certainly, this is valuable.  I think it's financially the most
    promising thing for me to focus on this year.  I want to find
    sponsorships for investigations at the Minciu Sodas laboratory, so that
    we could explore how to make groups productive.  We'll start by focusing
    on our own groups, such as minciu_sodas_en@egroups.com or
    ourownthoughts@egroups.com, what can we do for them.  You may also
    belong to other groups, and that'll be interesting to hear about.

    I especially invite anybody who's a leader here, such as Natalie,
    Marjorie, Annette, John, Saulius, Cass, John, Shannon.  Send a blank
    message to otherstands-subscribe@egroups.com or write to me at ms@ms.lt
    All members of our laboratory are welcome, and if you're not a member
    yet, I encourage you to become one.  A very good place to start is
    Natalie d'Arbeloff's questionnaire "What do I really care about?" which
    I include below.  Our letters will be available for all to view at
    http://www.egroups.com/messages/otherstands/ but only members can
    participate.  (We function as a networking club, that's the value of our
    service).  We'll also share our most interesting thoughts back here at
    minciu_sodas_en@egroups.com , which is our gateway to the
    lab.

    Also I've started writing letters to embracingothers@egroups.com to
    foster "caring about relationships with others". This includes stuff I'm
    working on, thinking out loud.  I'm trying to figure out the ways of
    caring about others, also the structure of the laboratory, and the
    Heart-to-Heart Support Network.  If you'd like to join that Working
    group, send a blank message to embracingothers-subscribe@egroups.com  If
    you're not a member, let's figure out what's a good way for you to show
    your initiative, such as completing Natalie's questionnaire.  Again,
    we'll be sharing some of our letters from there back over here, looking
    to you for feedback and new ideas.

    Certainly, you don't have to be a member.  I think Martin Luther King
    Jr. said that a healthy organization is always engulfed in a wider
    movement.  Partly I'm "spreading the fire" to other groups so as to
    encourage new voices, new themes, in our dicussion here.

    As concerns our gateway, minciu_sodas_en@egroups.com, I want to write
    about the importance of getting things done.  Certainly, that's our
    stated purpose, to "foster caring about thinking", and that's why I'm
    here.

    When we try to get things done, it affects how we spend our energy.
    When we're not trying to get anything done, then we may debate "free
    will vs. fate", taking either side, for 2500 years, as John wrote.  But
    if we're trying to get things done, then we realize: "Hey! we don't know
    how things actually are. But we do know, rather quickly, the
    perspectives that are available to our minds.  Frankly, we'll always
    have a need for the point of view of 'fate', and we'll always have a
    need for the point of view of 'free will'.

    So why explain one or the other away?  Indeed,
    we'll never let go of these, regardless of the arguments.  Instead,
    let's note what we do know: our mind is structured so that we divide
    everything into two perspectives, one where opposites coexist (free
    will), and one where all things are the same (fate)."  So we've noted
    that there's this structure, there's something that we actually know.
    We've taken a step forward.  Then we can ask new questions:
    Why is there such a structure,
    what purpose does it serve?  And we can find answers: This is important
    whenever we consider 'existence', for example, of a chair.  Because we
    want to be able to raise the question, "Does the chair exist?" and
    consider that it may or may not, two opposite points of view.  But we
    also want to be able to answer the question, so that it has a definite
    answer, whatever that may be.  In other words, without such a division
    of everything into two perspectives, 'existence' would be a non-issue.

    Marjorie made such an observation with respect to John Leppik and
    Saulius.  And I think John's idea of determinism illustrates that the
    two point of views can coexist.  I just want to note the value of
    structural thinking, that what we end up knowing, of practical value, is
    that there is this structure in our minds.  If I told you about it, I
    don't think you'll believe me.  But if you participate for yourself in
    such a discussion, then I think you'll believe me.  When we participate,
    then we see, that our options are more limited than we might suppose.
    This is more tangible, we feel it more strongly, then our own physical
    bodies.  For me, that's a principle reason why I've wanted these
    discussions.  Otherwise, I can't get across the things I observe, nobody
    would believe me.  But here it becomes tangible, once our discussion has
    a life of its own.  In fact, we can study it, return to it: why did this
    point of view feel this way? why does it lead to that point of view?  In
    general, it's very hard to map these questions, because they are so
    fleeting.  We have to slow down the mind in order to do that.  Well, now
    we have this chamber of discussion where we can speed up and slow down
    our thinking as needed.  We can see how an idea wants to unfold, and we
    can keep replaying that, faster or slower, until we figure it out.

    It's not clear what the value of collecting such structures is.  I'm
    starting to think that they don't have actual direct value.  But they'll
    help us organize ourselves, not get stuck on them.  They allow us to
    think without relying on language, it doesn't matter too much what we
    call them.  Each of us can call these structures whatever we like, and
    draw on our own intuition, which keeps becoming clearer. We're getting
    things done, making progress. But making progress towards what?  Is it
    going anywhere?

    That's why we have to keep connecting that, and our very selves, with
    things that we do know make a difference in the world, even the smallest
    things, as we go along.  So I was very happy about Davretta's letter,
    and a little sad that she's signing off.  I learned from talking to
    Marius Narvilas, a teacher in Lithuania who doesn't have Internet
    access, is that caring about others is to want them not just to be
    alive, but to grow.  In other words, mentoring, like Davretta wrote.  I
    think there is a sense in which we're mentoring each other, but we also
    want to help each other reach out beyond ourselves. What's worth getting
    done?

    It's very good that we write from our personal experiences, as Saulius
    and John did.  It's even more important, though, to look to the future,
    why and how and what and whether we want to get things done.  An
    explanation may seem to work fine with regard to the past, but do we
    want to apply it towards the future?  Again, "getting things done"
    orients us.

    "Caring about thinking" is a great anchor for this work because it is a
    meeting point that we can relate just about anything back to.  The
    more we keep in mind "getting things done", the more we can feel free to
    wander, follow our instincts and inspiration.  When we remember that we
    should be "getting things done", then we'll keep coming back to our
    starting point, "caring about thinking".

    Thank you!  This is great!
    Yours,