Įvadas E9F5FC

Juodraštis? FFFFFF

Užrašai FCFCFC

Klausimai FFFFC0

Gvildenimai CAE7FA

Pavyzdžiai? F6EEF6

Šaltiniai? EFCFE1

Duomenys? FFE6E6

Išsiaiškinimai D8F1D8

Pratimai? FF9999

Dievas man? FFECC0

Pavaizdavimai? E6E6FF

Istorija AAAAAA

Asmeniškai? BA9696

Mieli dalyviai! Visa mano kūryba ir kartu visi šie puslapiai yra visuomenės turtas, kuriuo visi kviečiami laisvai naudotis, dalintis, visaip perkurti. - Andrius



Žr. Suvedimas, Taikymas, Dievo požiūris, Visaregis, Viskas, Suvokimas, Žinojimas, Tiesa, Žemėlapynas, Požiūriai

Mano užmojis viską žinoti ir tą žinojimą gražiai taikyti.

Kiek šis užmojis būdingas Dievui? Kas jame glūdi ir kas iš jo išplaukia?

Kodėl būtent visko apimtyje prilygsta nežinojimas ir žinojimas?

  • Ką reiškia viską žinoti?
  • Kodėl žinoti viską?
  • Kaip žinoti viską?

Ką reiškia viską žinoti?

Tai sunkus klausimas, siejantis Dievo, žmogaus, žinojimo, pažinovo ir pažinimo, žvilgsnio, jautrumo klausimus.

Viską žinoti, tai iš tinkamo taško viską apžvelgti ir taip pat sugebėti bet ką išsiaiškinti, prieiti prie paskiro klausimo, jį ištirti ir išplėstomis žiniomis sugrįžti į viską apžvelgiantį tašką.

Visko žinojimas yra suvesties taškas, tad tai iššaukimas Dievo, koks jisai turėtų būti, tai aprėpimas besiplėtojančiojo amžino gyvenimo atsakymo, užtat tai Dievo būtinumo taškas. O Dievo nebūtinumo taškas, tai jo klausimas, Ar Dievas būtinas? kuriuo jisai iš karto nebūtinas - akivaizdžiai, betarpiškai, pastoviai ir prasmingai. Dievo prasmingumas išsako jo būtinumą, o jo akivaizdumas išsako jo nebūtinumą.

Visko žinojimas yra toksai žinojimas, kuris tobulai atitinka visišką nežinojimą, užtat atvirumą visakam. Tai nežinojimo klausimą atitinkantis atsakymas. Visko žinojimas yra nežinojimą visiškai išsemiantis žinojimas.

Visko žinojimas yra suvokimas Dievo klausimo, kad jisai nebūtinas, ir tiesos atsakymo, kad visgi Dievas būtinas.

Visko žinojimas yra pilnai besiskleidžiantis sąmoningumas.

Viską žinome priimdami Dievo požiūrį.

Visko žinojimas yra visko sudėliojimas taip, kad nežinantis Dievas jį išgyventų. Visko žinojimas yra Dievo požiūris.

Visko žinojimas yra išgyvenimas Dievo požiūrio. Tad jam būdingi du kampai: nežinančio Dievo išgyvenamas klausimas, ir jo aplinkybės, žinančio Dievo atsakymas. Nežinantis Dievas auga sąmoningumu, o žinantis Dievas plėtojasi nesąmoningumu. Mes galime kartu su Dievu priimti jo požiūrį, išgyventi jo požiūrį, dalyvauti visko ištyrime ir žinojime.

Visko žinojimas yra plėtojimas Dievo tyrimo, jo klausimo, Ar jisai būtinas?

tai santykis tarp Dievo ir visko

  • visko žinojimas sudėlioja viską taip, kad nežinantis Dievas jį išgyventų
  • (visuminis) žvilgsnis prilygstantis (vienalangiam) požiūriui (skiriančiam nulybę ir vienybę)

tai Dievo žvilgsnis

  • Dievo žvilgsnio savybes išsako jo apimtys: niekas, kažkas, betkas, viskas
    • Nieko apimtyje tiesus: Dievo žvilgsnis yra vieningas
    • Kažko apimtyje betarpiškas: Dievo žvilgsnis yra neribotas, niekaip nevaržomas, betarpiškai prieinantis visam žinojimui, tad toliaregis, iš karto įžvelgiantis visas smulkmenas
    • Betko apimtyje pastovus: Dievo žvilgsnis yra nežinantis, užtat tiriantis ir apibrėžiantis, tad matantis, įžvelgiantis, kuriantis, plėtojantis, brandinantis, mylintis tai kas šiaip nežinoma, miglota, netvarkinga ir neapibrėžta.
    • Visko apimtyje prasmingas: Dievo žvilgsnis yra pilnas, apimantis visą žinojimą

tai Dievo požiūrio priėmimas - užtat tai ir mūsų žvilgsnis Dievo požiūriu

  • take up that position, and so might all of good will, where one could see what God sees if one were farsighted as God is. Such an outlook is unlimited and therefore central. It is a vantage point from which we can appreciate the whole, and as we wish, venture forth to inspect any matter. It is, so to speak, to sit in God's lap. Likewise, God would see what we see if God were similarly shortsighted.
  • to have a perspective that is Absolute, Relative, Shared and Subordinate.
  • to take up that perspective for which everything serves as a framework. In this sense, everything is the structure of God, and God is the spirit of everything.
  • to position myself in that vantage point from which (if I had God's farsightedness) I would indeed see everything.
  • mes galime sakyti, žinome viską ką savo, tegul ir silpnaregio žvilgsniu, žvelgiame Dievo požiūriu, tad apimame visumą
  • to be able to not just 'know anything' but to be able to know, in particular, that vantage point from which I can know anything, looking out on all dominion.
  • to sit in God's lap, and look out with him.
  • to find that position from which all statements are true.
  • What did this mean to me in my childhood? I imagine it comes from being a very nearsighted child (us not realizing that until much later though) and so considering "knowing" to be not the same as "seeing". I have memories of a game where I would take chess pieces to the far side of a room and then go away and try to remember what they were, and then go back and check. Apparently, I may have played that when I was crawling. This kind of 'knowing' also suggests how a person's and God's views can coincide. So the end goal is to take up that vantage point and in that sense "share" God's vision (and I think he likes to share) and then be able to know 'anything' by crawling up and inspecting it, and then going back to the middle of the room, so to speak. I seem to recall a game that I played as a toddler, perhaps even when I was crawling, because I was nearsighted. I would crawl across the floor and leave a chess piece, then crawl away, and then crawl back. I imagine that this was a memory game as I was nearsighted. The chess pieces were like tokens in a register, and I imagine that I would try to remember them, and perhaps even do some sort of calculations, mental gymnastics. So I think by knowing everything I meant the ability to sit in the middle of the room and crawl out, as needed, to check on the answers.
  • Mąstyti požiūriu, kuris besąlygiškas, santykinis (relative), bendras (shared) ir nuolankus (subordinate), tad išreiškiančiu keturis suvokimo lygmenis.

tai Dievo žinojimas (tad visuminis)

  • to know the Truth, all of the truth, the whole truth
  • to know 'every thing'.
  • Dievo požiūris teisingas, išmintingas, tad neužtvertas.
  • Viskas yra pamatas besąlygiškumui.
  • žinoti besąlygišką tiesą
  • Dievą suprasti per jo kertinę vertybę, meilę, ir panašiai, kiekvieną žmogų suprasti būtent per jo kertinę vertybę. One of the ways to look out is through those "key concepts" that we, as independent thinkers, back ourselves into, as whatever we deem to be the deepest. So, for example, John's is "the experience of life" and mine is "living by truth". These are like stars in the sky, each person a witness to a concept, and we know that that person can bring us so promptly to the intuition relevant regarding that concept.
  • Dievą užklausti ir sulaukti jo atsakymo.
  • Suvokti visus žinojimo kelius. A structural machinery that generates absolutely all routes. That is what I'm looking for, the structural routes, but there will also be, in practice, non-structural short cuts that leap to the matter. We'll be able to inspect as much of the path as we like, however.
  • WalksOnTrees are perhaps important as they combine both unification, as the tree has a root, and completion, as given by the walk. In college, I asked God what kind of mathematics might be relevant to knowing everything, and I understood him to say that walks on trees where the trees are made of the elements of the threesome.
  • to appreciate in what sense all things are true. God is interested in the context for truth, whereas we are interested in what is true and what is false and too often simply presume our own context.
  • to be conscious of what God is conscious. This very much relates to my friend John Harland's (a fellow grad student from UCSD) theory of consciousness. It's actually simple but very powerful: You simply consider the statements relevant to some domain and the ability to check if they are true or not. Something is conscious if it shares this "Turing test" type ability - but this is crucial! it is with respect to that domain. (I suppose also the ability to reflect upon oneself or another being that it is able to apply such tests. I suppose this accords with the operation +3 that I think of as consciousness, by which I think we add three perspectives (to a division of everything) so as to allow for such a generic "other" (such as ourselves but also others) who can make such tests). So there is a huge partial order of consciousnesses that accords with the many domains out there. As a practical example, he's interested in how a deaf person might be able to "see" sound in an intuitive way, this should be possible.
  • an oracle - a recursively enumerable set which agrees with every recursively enumerable set on at least one value - thus finds truth in every point of view - and is the truth.

tai teisingas susistatymas Dievo atžvilgiu (tad mums savas, artimas, pažįstamas)

  • to be God's lens onto everything, his Omniscope.
  • to express God's understanding of the human in a language that a human can understand. Key to that language is the relationship between Love and Understanding.
  • Dievą įkūnijanti bendrytė, kurioje visi dalyvaujame - dangaus karalystė
  • a structure for eternal life, a bridge from that world out into this one. Imagine rotten corpses going back in time and receiving a spirit, now that's a thought. Or the whole direction of time being reversed and headed towards the Big Bang and whatever's beyond that.
  • sugebėjimas suvokti, kaip patys iškreipiame, ką matome. Užtat Dievas suvokia, kaip mus išgyventi ir taip pat, kaip atitaisyti mūsų iškreiptą vaizdą.
  • Visko žinojimas - didysis atsakymas - yra dalinio atsakymo vaisingumas - tai dangaus karalystė, ir trejybės ratas tuo remiasi. Užtat Mano ir Tavo požiūriai yra svarbūs nes jais remiasi dalinis atsakymas ir atitinkamas susikalbėjimas. Dalinis atsakymas remiasi pakankamu Dievu, kurį išsako pirminių sandarų septinti požiūriai, ir kuris rūpinasi gerumu. Amžinas gyvenimas išskiria tobulą, besąlygišką Dievą ir pakankamą, sąlygišką Dievą.

Matyti ką Dievas mato žiūrėdamas pro mus. Jo akimis matyti mūsų akimis. Tai Dievo žvilgsnis mūsų žvilgsniu, kurį išsako Dievo požiūris į mūsų požiūrį. Tai reiškia Dievo jautrumu žvelgti tokiu požiūriu. Dievo požiūris į mūsų požiūrį yra:

  • Unified, in that it is all pulled together into one perspective, as if standing in the right spot that might encompass all things
  • Complete, in that it reaches absolutely every possibility even if that relationship is simply potential
  • Familiar, in that it expresses everything in terms of us, and what is most basic and fundamental to us
  • Unobstructed, in that it is not hindered or limited by knowledge, but rather sees through it

Note that the familiar may be understood to define a gradation with regard to unification, and the unobstructed may be understood to define a gradation with regard to completion.

Viską žinoti, tai tarsi sėdėti Dievui ant kelių, būtent tokiame taške, iš kurio galima viską aprėpti ir suvokti, nors ir miglotai, kaip kad silpnaregis, nebūtinai tobularegis, kaip Dievas, visgi pagaunantis visumos esmę. Taip pat viską žinoti, tai reiškia sugebėti tinkamai išaiškinti bet kokį klausimą, tai yra, tarsi kūdikis, sugebėti iki jo nuropoti, jį ištirti, ir grįžti atgal į visumos išeities tašką.

O tasai viską aprėpiantis taškas yra nežinojimas, būtent nieko nežinojimas. Žinoti viską, tai tą nežinojimą išreikšti žinojimu. Žinojimas išreiškia nežinojimą klausimu, tuo tarpu žinojimas išreiškia žinojimą atsakymu. O klausimas, išreiškiantis nieko nežinojimą, yra: Ar Dievas būtinas? Ar jisai būtų, jeigu jo nebūtų? Vadinas, ar būtinai yra kažkas už santvarkos? Ar santvarka gali būti savarankiška?

Visko žinojimas išpildo, išreiškia, atskleidžia ir patvirtina nieko nežinojimą. Kitaip jis negali būti būtent visko žinojimas. Visko žinojimas visaip atjaučia, myli ir palaiko nieko nežinojimą. Visko žinojimo tikslas yra tarnauti nieko nežinojimui.

Visko žinojimas prilygsta gyvenimui be asmenų, tad bendrumui, besąlygiškumui, vienumui. Bendrumas-besąlygiškumas-vienumas yra esmė, bet šitą išreiškiant sąlygomis, nurodomas Dievas - "be sąlygų". Bet grynasis besąlygiškumas - pirmapradis Dievas - yra pirm sąlygų. Tad "Dievas" kaip toks yra svarbus tiktai iškilus sąlygoms, esant Man ir Tau. Aš ir Tu esame ta vienumo dvasia įsprausta į sąlygas. O jau Kitas išreiškia tą patį besąlygiškumą kaip ir Dievas. Kitas išreiškia pilną sąmoningumą, asmens visišką bendrumą. O Tu išreiškia sąlygišką bendrumą.

Visko žinojimas yra tiesa. Tai Kito požiūris, vienumas kuriuo viskas susiveda, taip kad nebėra asmenų.

Ką reiškia viską nežinoti?

Viską nežinoti, tai sugebėti atsisakyti visų savo prielaidų. Prielaidų atsisakymas gali būti labai tvarkingas. Tvarkingas prielaidų atsisakymas yra šviesuolių bendrystės pagrindas.

Kaip viską žinoti?

Kaip viską žinoti?

  • I use just about every method I can think of. One is imagining God's point of view - what would motivate me to generate anything? how would I set things up so that humans might figure it out?
  • Also, I try to look at aspects of human life that I am overlooking. I think that the deepest truth must be given in the most obvious places, and these are the places where we aren't looking, and don't want to look.
  • The Ten Commandments is one such place. So my intuition says that it is a gold mine for truth. I also look for recurring structures, especially structures that can be defined with regard to an entirety which includes us as well. So the thought that this might match a fundamental structure that I have found elsewhere is a great motivation. But in any event, finding an absolute grounding for issues like murder, lying, stealing, etc. is profound.
  • We have now participants from quite a variety of world views, both personal and religious, so I am very interested how we think of such things (and other basic questions).

Kaip iš viso ką nors žinoti besąlygiškai?

In seeking to know everything, we first wonder, is it possible to know anything? In other words, are there any absolutes?

Vaisingos prielaidos

The answer may be pragmatic in that it may depend on constructive hypotheses. Yet I feel that it should be possible to find an answer.

I think that this is related to the question, How can I take up God's view? How might I take up God's view of a human's view? Can I see what God sees when God looks through my eyes?

To know everything is to access our full potential. It is to have a completely unobstructed view. This is so ambitious that it suggests:

  • that we leverage God's point of view to the extent that we can, and make this endeavor relevant to him (we may seek
  • that we hope that God does what he can to make this endeavor possible for us (we may seek completion)
  • that the obstacles we face are primarily due to our own shortcomings (we may seek the unobstructed)
  • that we tend to avoid the relevant knowledge, and yet it is so close to us (we may seek the familiar)

The quest to know everything emboldens us to ponder what is important to God among that which is familiar to us.

Kaip neapibrėžtam žvilgsniui žvelgti apibrėžtu žvilgsniu?

Might an unlimited view take up a limited view? We can suppose that this is possible - this is a ConstructiveHypothesis - and we can leverage this hypothesis. Indeed, we may express our reasoning in terms of such Suppositions and develop from them an AlgebraOfViews.

In particular, this may happen through BisectingAView.

The approach is to start with human's view of God's view and then separate the two views and switch them around. (As with switching from knowledge=truth of concepts to God=concept of truth). The focus is to understand the effect of the human view so as to discount for it. This involves separating the two views so that they are grounded independently.

This may be related to the following idea:

Limited view of unlimited view = all from (for all), unlimited view of limited view = one from (there exists)

A definite view may position itself, as a lost child, so that pragmatically, it is taken up by an indefinite view.

Note that this is related to the Associative rule: Is it the case that a (definite view of an indefinite view) of a definite view is the same as a definite view of (an indefinite view of a definite view)? And how can we know?

In other words, how can we know that the CompositionOfViews is Associative? Or what ConstructiveHypotheses must we assume? And how do we apply them?


Imagine the mind as a wildly gyrating crystal into which you may cast a question, like a ray of light, and it reflects it as an answer. Now imagine such a crystal that was so pure and complete that it might serve God as his oracle. A sort of mirror, mirror on the wall.

That crystal would be so transparent that God could look through it with his view and also see how it effects his view and account for that. And it would allow him to appreciate his own view and escape the effects of his own view.

This would be equivalent to having two intimately related views - a transparent view that is so open it allows everything to view through it - and a truthful view that bears faithful witness to what it sees. These two views - if kept separate but held the same - yield the infinite loop above. They allow any view to escape its own effects because they report on any discrepancies caused by the unlimited view when it places itself between the transparent view and the truthful view.

This is, in some dual sense, the same as switching everything around, so that now the role of the oracle is given by God and good held separate. This string of views yields all the structure that I am aware of.

In this way, we may think of God as our mind, our oracle, by which we may understand everything.

Kodėl viską žinoti?

Kam viską žinoti?

  • Neturiu ką geresnio veikti.
  • Trokštu suvokti ir suprasti.
  • Jeigu viską žinotumėme, tai žinotumėme ką veikti, kaip gyventi, kaip pilnai atsiduoti.
  • Visko žinojimas tiktai praturtintų mūsų gyvenimą, kad gyventumėmeme sąmoningai, giliau ir plačiau, juk visos gyvenimo veiklos padeda mums pažinti ir suvokti viską.
  • Kaip John Harland yra man pasakęs, "We can spare a person to work on it."

Ar gera viską žinoti?

I do not feel that God requires such endeavor. But I do feel that God is sympathetic, and Scripture lets me be bold.

Kaip gražiai taikyti visko žinojimą?

What are the practical consequences of knowing everything? I think they are apocalyptic in the sense that the truth would be tangible, like the Holy Spirit in flesh, and we could know the answers to everything that we might ask, but they might be quite involved. And ultimately we would rely boldly on our own instincts. And the honest people would accept this, but any who are not honest would be devastated by such a reality.

Ar viską žinoti?

Ar įmanoma viską žinoti?

Many have told me that nobody can know everything, and that I need not try. They speak with great confidence, but I suppose, without any experience. If they spent one full day trying, with all their might, then I imagine they might think differently.

In fact, I think that we can hardly know Anything if we can't understand how it fits with everything. Whereas my quest to know everything has brought much knowledge, and much of that useful.

Right now I'm working to discover the truth, although I think I have a good idea of large parts of it. I feel like I am working on a jigzaw puzzle for all of human life. I look for missing pieces, anything new from any corner of my life. I look for patterns of how these separate pieces fit together. And I try to understand the entirety, and keep reinterpreting, keep repositioning myself, so that it all comes into focus. In doing so, I find it helpful to imagine God's point of view.

I feel that I have a rather complete set of basic pieces, and a pretty good view of the overall picture. This is because I have been rather active in considering all the basic questions in life, and I see that the basic structures keep recurring, and I don't find many sources for new ones. Also, I have had some success in organizing all of the basic structures in a way that seems self-complete.

Right now, I am trying to find the right vantage point for everything to come better into focus, so that I can see where it generates from. Recently I realized that there may be six vantage points and that I have only one of them, expressing everything in terms of definition. But even that might be a good start, I think. Andrius, Living by Truth, 2003.06.02

Ar iš viso įmanoma kažką žinoti?

Ar galime kažką besąlygiškai žinoti?

Pastaba: Įdomu, kad "Is it possible to know anything?" lietuvių kalba skambėtų "Ar iš viso įmanoma kažką žinoti?"

  • Solomon asked for "an understanding heart to judge your people, that I may be able to discern good and evil", and God said "behold, I have given you a wise and an understanding heart; so that there has been none like you before you, neither after you shall any arise like you." (Kings 1)
  • Vanity of vanities, all is vanity. [...] I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under the sky. It is a heavy burden that God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with. I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and behold, all is vanity and a chasing after wind. (Ecclesiastes)
  • Love justice, you who judge the earth; think of the LORD in goodness, and seek him in integrity of heart; Because he is found by those who test him not, and he manifests himself to those who do not disbelieve him. For perverse counsels separate a man from God, and his power, put to the proof, rebukes the foolhardy; Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin. (Wisdom NAB)
  • Resplendent and unfading is Wisdom, and she is readily perceived by those who love her, and found by those who seek her. She hastens to make herself known in anticipation of men's desire; he who watches for her at dawn shall not be disappointed, for he shall find her sitting by his gate. For taking thought of her is the perfection of prudence, and he who for her sake keeps vigil shall quickly be free from care; Because she makes her own rounds, seeking those worthy of her, and graciously appears to them in the ways, and meets them with all solicitude. For the first step toward discipline is a very earnest desire for her; then, care for discipline is love of her; love means the keeping of her laws; To observe her laws is the basis for incorruptibility; and incorruptibility makes one close to God; thus the desire for Wisdom leads up to a kingdom. If, then, you find pleasure in throne and scepter, you princes of the peoples, honor Wisdom, that you may reign as kings forever. Now what wisdom is, and how she came to be I shall relate; and I shall hide no secrets from you, But from the very beginning I shall search out and bring to light knowledge of her, nor shall I diverge from the truth. (Wisdom NAB)
  • Give me Wisdom, the attendant at your throne [...] dispatch her That she may be with me and work with me, that I may know what is your pleasure. [...] For she knows and understands all things, and will guide me discreetly in my affairs [...] For what man knows God's counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends? [...] Or who ever knew your counsel, except you had given Wisdom and sent your holy spirit from on high? (Wisdom NAB)
  • Wisdom sings her own praises [...] Come to me, all you that yearn for me, and be filled with my fruits (Sirach NAB)
  • Let us praise him the more, since we cannot fathom him, for greater is he than all his works; Awful indeed is the LORD'S majesty, and wonderful is his power. Lift up your voices to glorify the LORD, though he is still beyond your power to praise; Extol him with renewed strength, and weary not, though you cannot reach the end: For who can see him and describe him? or who can praise him as he is? Beyond these, many things lie hid; only a few of his works have we seen. It is the LORD who has made all things, and to those who fear him he gives wisdom. (Sirach NAB)
  • God allowed Satan to test Job, until Job cursed the day of his birth. Job challenged God to explain himself face-to-face. And God did come and say, "Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" and many such questions. Yet the wrath of God was against Job's friends for their false counsel regarding God. God told Job that he had spoken rightly, and blessed him, and gave him twice what he had before. (Job)
  • Jesus Christ spoke: Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened. (The Sermon on the Mount)
  • Jesus Christ, just before his death, spoke: I have yet many things to tell you, but you can�t bear them now. However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. (John 16)

Andrius: Consider sitting in God's lap and relate that to the Lamb and the Throne in Revelations 5.

Borgeso apsakymas "Alefas".

JosephGoguen: I have often thought that your goal to, "know everything and apply it usefully" sounded a bit far fetched, until your post explained what you meant by "everything" - a concept, not a concrete collection in the world (so maybe it should be in quotes ('..') in your goal statement?). Your detailed explanation makes it clear that your understanding of 'everything' is actually close to the Buddhist understanding of sunyata (in Sanskrit, often misleadingly translated as just 'emptiness' or 'nothingness' but also often explicated as 'fullness' or the 'fullness of emptiness'). Nagarjuna is the most cited philosopher for this area of Buddhist thought.

Buddhists also find the absolute in sunyata, saying that the world is all relative and non-absolute, but the emptiness of the world is absolute. There are also a traditional theory of knowledge and a logic based on the viewpoint of sunyata, for which one might consult the book by Stcherbatsky "Buddhist Logic" (this email is not a good place for such details but Google can find some interesting links (of variable quality)).


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Puslapis paskutinį kartą pakeistas 2018 lapkričio 12 d., 20:59